• Matthew 5:32, 19:9 Exception Clause/Innocent Woman
• Does Deuteronomy 24 / The Law of Moses Prohibit Returning To The First Spouse?
• Look At The Betrothal View
• Romans 7 - Paul was talking about the Law not Marriage
• 1 Corinthians 7:15 - But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound
• 1 Corinthians 7:9 - It is better to marry than to burn It is not good for man to be alone
• 1 Corinthians 7:27-28 - But If Thou Marry Thou Hast not sinned
• 1 Corinthians 7:24 - Remain As You are Called
• Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus
• Herod & Herodias
• 1 Corinthians 6:16 - Does Sex=Marriage? He which is joined to an harlot is one body?
• John 4 - Jesus & The Woman With 5 Husbands
• What about David & Bathsheba?
• What about Esther & King Ahasuerus?
• Hosea & Gomer
• Ezra Chapters 9 & 10 - Putting Away Unlawful Marriages
• Jeremiah 3 - God Divorced Israel
• "Put Away" Does Not Mean Divorce/A Divorce Certificate Dissolves A Marriage
• You Can’t Compare Homosexual Unions with Remarriage
• What About Abusive Marriages?
• What About The Children Of Remarriage?
• Divorce & Remarriage is Not the Unforgivable Sin
• Do Not Judge/Where Are Grace & Mercy?
• Divorce & Remarriage Before Salvation
• Men Can Divorce, Women Cannot?
• Unequally Yoked Marriages/Believers & Unbelievers
• Is Remarriage Adultery A One Time Act or Continuous Adultery?
• Does God Join All First Marriages?
• God Hates Divorce! Divorcing From A Remarriage Would Be A Sin?
• Were Remarriages In The Early Church?
• 1 Corinthians 7:11 - "Unmarried" Means The Divorced Is Free To Remarry
• 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
• Divorce, Remarriage, Churches, Ministries, Christian Leaders, Teachers & Divorce Rates
• Are Remarriages Blessed By God?
• Polygamy & Remarriage
• General Questions & Comments

"Look at the legalized adultery we call divorce. Men marry one wife after another and are still admitted into good society; and women do likewise. There are thousands of supposedly respectable men in American living with other men's wives, and thousands of supposedly respectable women living with other women's husbands." - R. A. Torrey From R.A. Torrey's book How to Pray, pages 94-95

R.A. Torrey (1856-1928) was a very well-known Christian writer, evangelist, pastor, graduate of Yale University, and was also the superintendent of Moody Bible Institute for 19 years.

TRINITY BARS THE DIVORCED.; No Remarriage in the Church or Any of the Chapels.

The clergy of Trinity Church announced yesterday that under no circumstances will divorced persons be married by any of the clergy of that Episcopal parish, nor will such marriages be permitted either in the church at Wall Street and Broadway or in any one of the parish's eight chapels. The announcement was as follows:
View full article New York Times
December 7, 1904, Wednesday

Frequently Asked Questions, Comments and Arguments about Marriage Divorce & Remarriage

---

 What About The Children Of Remarriage?

Comment/question
So, are you saying that in the second marriage with children, you believe the person should divorce the second spouse and return to the first?
Response  
I believe that if a relationship is shown to be adulterous, repentance, true repentance, would require leaving such a relationship---whether it be extramarital adultery or remarital adultery. I don't think the Lord differentiates between the two.

 

Comment/question
I'm at a loss for words seeing that you think children should be left without a father or mother to go back to a first marriage.
Response  
Is this not what happens to children of FIRST marriages?

 

Comment/question
(Speaking on repentance of the 2nd marriage)
Now that you have your legal shark, if you have kids, sit them down and explain to them why you are screwing up their entire lives. Explain to them that God demands their sacrifice as well even though they are innocent of the entire thing.
Response  
Do you give this same counsel to those who divorce their first wives/husbands? How about the children of such when their parent replaces those wives/husbands with another? Do you tell the kids because it is the parents "right" to forsake the "erring" spouse, they will have to "get over it" and acclimate themselves to another "mommy, daddy", "siblings", so their mommy/daddy can be "happy"?

 

Comment/question
Causing children to stumble is a biblically condemned action. Using the sanctity of marriage as the covenant protection over children is scriptural. Second marriages are NOT adultery. Therefore the correct assertion is the children are a reason to continue to be a godly parent and remain in the family and keep it whole.
Response  
Yes, you are quite right. It is a serious thing to cause a child to sin (stumble), yet this is exactly what the majority of the church is doing today. The thing I see is that we are not conforming to His likeness, we are bringing Him down to our human likeness. Doing such WILL cause our children to stumble/sin and forsake the way of the Lord. These days are very much like what the Lord spoke in His Word: "Every man/woman is doing what is right IN THEIR OWN SIGHT"-----that is evidenced by the lack of scriptural support by many. "I think", "I feel", "It's not logical", "it's not fair", "I know what the bible says, but that can't be what it means"..........these are the mindsets of many in the "church" today.

 

I feel very sad for the legacy we are passing down to our children. Many of our children will not understand the Godly concept of "perseverance".........nor of dying to self for the good of others...........Many are saying "God wants me to have a Godly family and to raise my children in such"...........yet God HAS given that person a spouse and children, but the spouse is not desirable.........they are off into sin..........they are to be rejected and a "better" spouse sought in his/her place. I don't see Jesus in any of that. That type of mindset is completely opposed to what I know of the Lord and His mercy towards those in sin. The mindset that we shouldn't/don't have to suffer because of other's sins is something I can't find in scripture and a terrible thing to pass down to our children who will not be equipped to live the Christian life (it is no longer "I" that lives, but Christ who lives within me).

 

 Comment/question
But when you see God moving powerfully and lovingly to heal families, help remarried couples, help them grow in Him and bear good fruit for Him, and see their children accept Christ and also be healed in Him - it's gotta make you wonder, doesn't it?
Response  
Honestly, it doesn't make me wonder because I know the Lord moves in SPITE of us, not because we are "right" in His sight. The scriptures teach that the Lord has mercy even upon the ungodly, so that is no measure that a person is walking with the Lord in an upright fashion in every area of their life. Concerning "healing", I am a product of MANY divorces and I can tell you that until I became born again and the Lord started bringing healing to me in a personal way, remarriages NEVER were healing. I carried a lot of baggage due to my mother's divorces and subsequent remarriages. Secretly, I ALWAYS hoped somehow, someway my parents would get back together. THAT is the heart of a child. I have heard so many parents say it is BEST for their child for the parent to move on and I think that is just hogwash to ease their own consciences and go after what they want in life. Step-families are NOT easy.

 

Comment/question
I have a question for those who believe you should return to the first marriage. What if there are children in the second marriage? Does that change the scenario, or do you still believe the spouse should leave the second marriage and return to the first?
Response  
I know of three separate situations like this in which there are children from the second marriage and the couples I speak of are either working towards restoration with the first spouses or are willing to remain unmarried. Children do not make a marriage lawful/unlawful. I think the children of second marriages that end in divorce are no worse off than those of first unions that end in divorce. People seem to want to focus on the children of the second marriages, but MANY children of 1st marriages suffer lifelong pain due to their parents choice to get divorced and then marry another. People seem to forget this also: if divorced people didn't get remarried while they still had a living spouse, they would not have children from second marriages to worry about.......that would also solve many of the "blended" family problems------as there would only be families that blend due to the death of a parent.........no "ex" in the picture to cause trouble.

  

Comment/question
Under Jewish law they were forbidden to marry those women anyway, it was to keep the Law from being polluted. So it really has no bearing on Divorce and remarriage.
Response  
I think we have to acknowledge that it does have a bearing because people often say "Surely God would never require for a family to break up and for them to be separated from their parents".......Ezra give evidence that God does require the forsaking of forbidden marriages in repentance. Whether one has children or not does not do away with the sin of being in an illicit relationship.

 

Comment/question
Jesus is being portrayed through this interpretation (and I will absolutely continue to call it that because that is what it is), as one who does not care about the lives involved. If, for example, the second marriage produced children and the first marriage didn't and the husband were to divorce returning to the first, you are now dealing with children whose father is not in the home and all the drama that goes along with that.
Response  
I don't think you will see anyone on this thread saying that Jesus doesn't care about any of the people affected by adulterous remarriages----those committing the adultery, the children of all involved, and the spouses who are forsaken. The Lord certainly cares for everyone in such situations. The fact of the issue is that Jesus cares SO much, even for the sinner, that instead of having them stoned for their "crimes", He extends Grace and the ability to forsake their sins. How much more love could one ask for? He even requires those who have been hurt by sin to forgive the offenders in such situations. I know of many spouses who have been left. Their covenant spouse is off with someone else committing adultery, yet the deserted one prays for not only their spouse to forsake their sin, but also they pray for the other person who is also "lost in sin".........praying that the Lord bless them with repentance and restoration to the Lord. I have a friend who even befriended the woman who committed adultery with her husband. She extended the love of the Lord to the woman.........and the woman took notice of this. That is the love of Christ, Promise. The love of Christ rescues us from our sins, it does not allow us to stay in our sins. That is a very grave deception of this day........

 

It appears to me from what you have stated above concerning those who have children vs. those who do not, that the children to you are the deciding factor on whom a person should stay with. The thing is that the Lord does not see it this way. The covenant is what is the determining factor to the Lord---the covenant HE entered into and the one He ratified (by joining 2 into 1). The only way the covenant is broken/dissolved is through the death of one of the "signers"----Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39. I want to ask you how you would then handle this situation (HYPOTHETICAL) since you take the position that children determine the legitimacy of a marriage: a man and woman are married, they have no children. The man goes out and has an extramarital affair for many years. In that relationship he has 3 children. The wife finds out about it and demands the man leave that relationship. What should the man do?
Comment/question
First of all she not divorced him for his affairs so he is still legally bound. Secondly, he has not married the second. Those were the terms of my discussion. In the situation you have posted, obviously the man would need to stop his adultery. Unfortunately those children will suffer a great deal.
Response  
Exactly, the children will suffer. Why? Because those involved did not follow the Lord, but their own desires........and so it goes with those who put away their spouses and join themselves into adulterous unions. The destruction is great in the lives of all involved----even if they can't see it yet. Again, I notice that you put much weight on a divorce dissolving a marriage, hence if one is not divorced, the adultery is not ok. However, those ideas do not line up with Jesus' words on the matter. He spoke of those who DO put away their spouses and take to themselves another---THEY are guilty of adultery too, yet you feel they can stay in that. Why the difference, Promise? Do you hold that Jesus accepts a piece of paper as dissolving a marriage, even though He said He does not?
Comment/question
...and this is my point. The people are not the factor but rather the law and I never said the children determine the "legitimacy of the marriage".
Response  
The Lord determines the legitimacy of a marriage and He has spoken about the nature of a second union while one has a living spouse---it is adultery, not a marriage joined by God.
Comment/question
If the first wife chooses to divorce him however, and he marries the mother of his 3 children, I would not then go in and call this second marriage adulterous, demanding he divorce her and try to go back to the first and if that marriage can't be reconciled, he should stay single not being able to be honorable and marry this woman with his 3 children.
Response  
So again, you feel it better to stay in adultery than it is to "remain unmarried" as the Lord commands?

 

Comment/question
I think this exhortation very much applies to the current concern of families becoming estranged through divorce and remarriage. Just ask the kids that are left in the dust of the wake of father (or mother) choosing their own "new life" or "new family" to spend the majority of their time with. Just ask the parent that is left "holding the bag" of main responsibility struggling to make up for the loss of the other parent in the home with discipline, discipleship, nurture, and teachable moments.

 

May the spirit of Elijah prevail and a reconciliation between estranged family members begin to be more normative because of Your ultimate act of reconciliation that none of us deserved, Lord Jesus.
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another
Response  
Ah, sister, I so much do pray for that. If only there was an honoring of first marriages, we would not even be discussing the disposition of unlawful 2nd unions and the children involved. If we truly DID love as Jesus does, no one would involve themselves in other's marriages and be a tool used by the enemy to destroy marriages that are in trouble and needing help. Instead they are allowing themselves to be used by the enemy. If only those involved could have eyes to see their part in helping the kingdom of darkness instead of bringing the love of Christ into the world..............all is not lost yet ...............yet...........but the days are growing short, I believe.

 

Comment/question
Why don't you get to know them and ask them?

You cannot say for them for you do not know yourself.
Response  
I can make general statements based upon my own experiences and the experiences of the countless other "children" of divorce/remarriage. Much has been written on the topic as well in regards to the effects of divorce/remarriage on children. MOST of it is not positive. MOST wished that their parents marriages would be healed..............MOST would very much be willing to wait to see that happen. MOST want their own parents back together again---even after their parents have remarried others. MOST do not like the jealousies, partiality, etc that is exhibited in a step-parent/step-sibling situation-----things they wouldn't have to deal with if they had a single/or original parent home. MOST do not like when they grow up having to deal with all the problems associated with step parents/step siblings, etc when it comes to who to visit, whom not to visit, whom to invite, whom not to invite.

 

These things are true for the majority...............the opposite end of the spectrum is rare.

 

Comment/question
The true representation of Christ is not one of a Savior suffering in vain. What Christ set out to do, He did. The true representation of Jesus to children is that of the compassionate savior that sacrificed for His people and overcame death and the grave and the devil in all ways. So then we as parents sacrifice much for our children and overcome those things of this world that seek to do them and us harm. We show them the power to overcome evil and press on in the strength of Christ. That is the true representation of Christ.
Response  
I see many people saying such things, yet these very same children live and visit these "HORRIBLE" parents that the spouse says they are protecting their children from. Makes no sense to me, unless the children did not have access to the so-called destructive parent. It seems to me, that the "fruit" of such reasonings shows WHO wanted escape..........and that it was not a CHILD based decision. When one leaves the marriage and the kids STILL abide with the supposed "abuser", it shows who wanted out -----the kids' welfare does not/did not enter into the decision to divorce---it was self based.
Comment/question
Now hold it a minute. Please stop using inflamatory words like this. I do not believe it is an "entitlement". Never did I say that. I did say it is a permissible option subject to God leading the individual in how He would have them respond. So then if they exercise their ability to divorce, it is clearly a provision of mercy for THEM.
Response  
Is 'entitlement' an inflammatory choice of words? I don't think so. You believe those whose spouses have committed adultery are entititled to forsake their covenant vows----entitled is defined as: to furnish with a right. You do believe God has furnished the right for offended spouses. Do you not?
Comment/question
No I do not think the exercising of the permission to divorce is necessarily love to the sinning spouse, but it is love to the children in many cases, and in following the will of God to do so, it is love of God.
Response  
Again, if the children abide/visit the spouse who is divorced, the children are reaping no such "love" by an act of divorce. All they are seeing is their two parents, who they love more than anything in the world, opposed to each other and apart.

 

Comment/question
Again, if you bring up the children of divorce, each side can site examples to support their arguement. One side can describe children being tossed back and forth between two households. The other can describe children who are calm and happy and seeing a healthy relationship modeled before them, perhaps for the first time. I've seen both myself.

It all goes back to making sure that you have the heart of God in your situation. Let's leave the kids out of it.
Response  
Yes, I agree that both sides can present 'scenarios' which seem to support each side..........and that is where the Word of God comes in. I believe in all the discussion about "parenting"............a single parent waiting for the wayward, raising their children in a loving environment is the way of the Lord and aligns with His Word on loving a spouse as one loves their own body..........not replacing a parent with a other children's parents. If a parent is "absent" in a child's life, that is when the extended family should be there to provide the love they need, in addition to the parent who is there with the child. I don't know why some feel a parent must be "replaced" to make a child's life "better" when they already have a parent...........

 

Comment/question
Yes we have human limits for behavior. That is simply the way things are. Limits are placed because we are in temporal bodies and do not have eternity to see the results. And in the time being, there is physical safety, physical support, and other temporal concerns that God has told us to trust Him with. And sometimes His provision is in replacement, not restoration.
Response  
I agree when it comes to physical needs, ie; housing, job, food, etc, but I disagree when it deals with a covenant spouse. I can find nowhere in scripture where a man is to dispose of the one whom God said to love as he loves his own body(Eph. 5). No man who loves himself will destroy himself. No woman who honors her husband "as unto the Lord" will dishonor her husband by divorcing him and replacing him with another man as their children's father.
Comment/question
The house is already fallen by that time. It is time to construct a new house with your children as best you can and in the way Christ leads you.
Response  
Unless a parent has died, a parent does NOT need to be replaced. Even then, many children grow up quite well, loved by only one parent when that parent chooses not to marry again.
Comment/question
You see, that is what the innocent spouse is left with. Children who are crushed, feeling they were betrayed, and full of anger and confusion. And many, many times, they see God as distant and uncaring in those circumstances. Pulling such a child out of that situation and into a loving situation where they feel safe, where they are allowed to prosper and where they know daily they are loved and have not doubts, that  is what a child wants.
Response  
I do know of children such as those you speak of. I know of many parents who do not feel the need to "replace" their child's parent with someone else. They view their spouse as being the parent, whether they are doing a "good" job or not, they teach their children to love and honor that other parent.

 

Comment/question
As far as kids go, they all want perfect families, original parents together or not, and they won't get them because they are not perfect themselves. Trust me, we all would love to live in a world of original loving spouses with 2.5 children per household (generic thinking here). But that is not the world we live in.

 

So again, I say keep the kids out of the equation.
Response  
Again, I agree with you that children do not make a lawful marriage and children do not determine what God's Will is. We see in Ezra that the men who put away their wives, also had children with them. Them having children did not change that they needed to put away these unlawful wives though---and that is usually the argument that is presented-----destruction of the family.

 

However, where the children DO come in is that they SUFFER greatly when the parents disobey God, either by marrying the first time a person they should not have, and on the other hand, and has been noted, later on, joining with a new person. Whether a child is born of a first "lawful" union or a second "unlawful" union, children suffer when their parents walk in disobedience to the Lord----and fighting and bickering among COVENANT partners, making a household a place of WAR, is also walking in disobedience----and the children are suffering----BECAUSE of their parents. Many times I see where one person blames the other........yet, it really DOES take 2 people to fight and scream at each other.
Comment/question
Kids would all love to have their own rooms and all the toys and candy, too. They would all like to be able to go around the corner and visit grandparents and cousins but we don't live in a world like that either anymore.
Response  
Ah, but the things you listed that kids like, are NOT as important as having their parents together, loving each other as God would have them. That is the "secret" desire in all kid's hearts who come from divorce---irregardless of how nice as any step parent may be.

 

As for the world we live in, yes, I agree. Many times it is employment that leads us away from extended family. However, it seems to me that one of the biggest reasons for distance is divorce/remarriage. Many people take their kids (custodial) to a different state than the biological parent who is the non-custodial parent. That is an absolutely horrible thing. Divorce not only affects a child's relationship with the non-custodial parent, it also affect ALL other extended family relationships..........and also FORCES the new extended family members to accept the new put together family or face rejection. Kids "feel" all of this. They know "grandma" is not really THEIR grandma, etc. It is a mess as witnessed by the MANY posts of step-parents, covenant spouses, in laws, etc.

 

Because of ALL these things in addition to what we see written in His Word on severing a covenant marriage, it CAN'T be God's will...........it is man's will to find his own brand of happiness----and many suffer because of it. The notion that kids will NOW get to see two "married" people interacting and problem solving in a positive way, is not even a biblical concept as far as WHO one is supposed to be married to. If that were the defining notion, ALL of us could use divorce as a "tool" to find the right one who "gels" with us best----the one whom we can talk with the most reasonably, the one who doesn't push our buttons and one who doesn't get their buttons pushed by us. The truth of the matter is that difficult times TEST us, and mold us, into the image of Jesus. It is how we go THROUGH those times that will speak the most to our children........it is HOW we LOVE those who don't treat us right, that will speak most to them...........not how much we LOVE those who LOVE US.

 

Comment/question
You will begin to see how these remarriages serve to provide a Christian nest for children abandoned by their unbelieving moms or dads. I believe these are the things you cannot see because you are stuck on the law. Because you think all remarriages are sin you can't see how God uses them.
Response  
Many children who come out of these situations will not see "God", they will see that people do not need to uphold their word. They will see that because one offends another, that frees the one offended from fulfilling their obligations towards the offender. It shows that we do not take our relationships with each other seriously, but that people are disposable. "mess with me, you're gone, and replaceable"..........

Many, many, pioneer children grew up without dads around because their dads were gone years and years trying to find a proper homestead for the family. The mothers held down the fort, so to speak, until the dad came home---even taking care of the family in financial ways. Men, in and around such families came to the aid of the children/mother to help. See, THIS is God's way for a family to function in time of need............not to ditch/replace, etc the one who is "gone" with another mom/dad. One can NEVER replace a mom or dad, yet this seems to be the mindset of many today. It didn't used to be the mindset of days gone by. In the case of a sinning spouse deserting their family, the thing is that Jesus even addressed this. If a man put away his wife, HE would cause her to commit adultery. God puts much of the blame on such men, yet the truth is that such a woman is NOT free to marry again. If she does, she is committing adultery. You can speak of the "law" all you want in a negative fashion, but Jesus' teachings on the "law" that you seem to negate, matter to Him (Luke 16:16-18).............and this issue matters so much so, that He addresses it in CONJUNCTION with His words on the "law" in Luke 16.

 

Comment/question
There will be children that were brought up in proper homes that will do the same.

What the poster says is true, and throwing an opposing aspect doesn't change it. Why can't you acknowledge that? Why do you divert from it? It doesn't change the facts! God does things, and we may never know why...but that doesn't change the fact it happens. You and I nor anyone else can downgrade it, minimize it, or dump it. Giving an example going in the extreme other direction doesn't change it either!

I acknowledge it as one of life's mysteries that God will have us wait to understand.
Response  
I did not say ALL children will come out of situations not "seeing God". I said MANY, and that is very true. Kids today do not understand commitment, family values, agape love (God's kind of love), because it is not mirrored to them in their parents loving each other---in good times AND in bad (our loyalties are very conditional). I know even in some intact families, kids are not having agape love shown, but they are seeing at least some semblence of commitment.

As for "God doing things".........I don't believe God causes people to divorce their spouses and then replace them with another, Him calling it adultery. God does not tempt us to sin----that is our own flesh/selfishness/hard-heartedness, etc that causes us to depart from His will and go our own way----to the detriment of our family. Believe me, I UNDERSTAND abusive situations as I see such in my own extended family. However, what I can't agree with is that our Lord excuses sin because another has sinned against us. The Lord desires to bring the sinner to a place of repentance. It is NOT His will to chuck a sinner aside permanently, and that should not be our action either.

Comment/question

I don't remember mentioning ALL children !

What kind of "semblance of commitment" are you talking about if you speaking of a family dealing with abuse? What about ANY other addiction or tearing apart type of behavior? Sticking around with a spouse because the church says it sin is to allow ongoing damage for those children have for LIFE in most cases! I didn't say ALL...but I said MANY also! What good that did that 'semblance of commitment' really do for them? It showed that people are asking them to tolerant sin for the sake the family that some feel is more important the individuals within! Is that the message God is really trying the send? I hardly think so!

Response  
Is it my imagination, or do you really only take PART of what I say and ignore the rest. I have CLEARLY said on countless occasions that I KNOW there are serious reasons for separation and that God HAS obviously allowed for separation/divorce in such instances, but....................and here's my point: What God does NOT do is give allowance for REMARRIAGE to take place. In other words, we kick the offender to the curb-PERMANENTLY. I do not believe this is God's Will AT ALL for those HE has joined as ONE. I believe it is our obligation as believers to stand fast for the family to be healed and restored and that we have NOT been given the right to join ourselves with others. That is the commitment I believe scripture teaches in regards to covenant marriages/families.

I have 3 different situations in my family right now in which abuse, gambling, pornography, alcoholism, etc is going on. I KNOW that these things are NOT healthy and that separation many times will bring about repentance........sometimes not though. However, as I said, I would NEVER counsel any of these women in my family that God thinks it "good" to hook up with another man. Scripture teaches that it is sin (adultery).

Comment/question

Separation or divorce will NOT erase that spouse as a parent, but it will give children the peace they need in their home in order to grow up healthier and have a chance at something better! Chances are good they will have visitation with the abusive spouse, and everyone will STILL have to deal with the venom they pour out!

Response  
Exactly!!! The very reason that sometimes divorce is NOT the solution............and the fact that some think when they kick such spouses to the curb, their problems are solved. Not so, because as you said, the kids are STILL with the other parent---sometimes up to half the time. ..........so since the kids are NOT protected in such instances, why separate-----especially if the one parent KNOWS the other is mean to the kids? Seems to me, the separation/divorce in such cases is more for the adult wanting to get away than the kids. If the kids are visiting, the other adult does not know what's going on and isn't there to protect the kids, are they?

Comment/question

If the parent that leaves an illegal situation, so that their children can have peace "sometimes" compared to NEVER....they instantly have this mindset of my problem is over since I kicked them to curb.

Response  
Ok, let me straighten your misunderstanding of my view: when I use the term "kick them to the curb" it is in regards to a PERMANENT mindset of rejection (divorce..............and eventually moving on to someone new), not a temporary separation with the hopes/focus of restoration. I do understand the "sometimes" issue concerning peace. However, the fact remains that the child is STILL having to deal with the fathers in such cases, unless the father abandons their rights for visitation/partial custody.

Comment/question

They also are thinking mostly of themselves since laws are not setup to protect children as they should....so instantly they are also branded SELFISH!

Response  
See, this is what I mean by you taking PART of what I say and running with it. I never said that all women who separate for themselves or the protection of their children are selfish. I believe the "kick to the curb mindset is selfish"...........as it does not consider the WHOLE, long term effects of "moving on", including replacing a parent in the life of a child. I've made it clear that separation for safety's sake is not a bad thing.

Comment/question

To me it would seem to make more sense to take on the lawmakers to see what they can do to protect the children, and to remind them also what the bible says about their protection. The parent that left at least is trying by getting them out, and showing these children what peace feels like for the first time! You are stating if you can't give them that 24/7 then you shouldn't have that at all. That' unrealistic and you know IT! You can't blame the parent that left, because of the laws that aren't setup to protect children.

Response  
No, that's not what I said. I merely used the opposing argument to make a point about our "reasons" for divorce. I understand the need for separation and that it is a good thing-----to refresh one's spirit and remove children from the constant beating down they may get in such an environment.

Comment/question

God's will is for the family to be restored, but God also knows that this is not always possible. God knows some will never return, and the bible speaks of this also. At times families are called to wait, and other times they are not. You state they have no right to that, because it doesn't line with your opinion.

Response  
As I already stated above and anyone can see for themselves what God's Word says: "WHOSOEVER puts away their wife/husband and marries another, commits adultery. WHOSOEVER marries one divorced, commits adultery." That is not my opinion, that is God's Word. We can either accept or reject it, but we can't claim it as someone's "opinion". We can tout, "God wills for some to wait..........and wait........and wait........but others He allows to find another spouse". Are you telling me that God has different standards for some to follow or that He is a respector of persons?
 

Comment/question

I have my understanding of scripture and I can only say from the experience that people become so fully healed by restoring what is right, all guilt and shame is removed.

Spend some time with some remarried people and the TRUE attitude of their hearts is revealed. Some local qualified statistics here in Australia back these attitudes up.

Response  
What you speak is TRUTH. I know many who are either restored or in the process and they are walking in the Lord's perfect peace.........no shame.

As for remarried people, you are right about the TRUE attitudes being revealed---in time. I have seen it time and again, in my own family, as well as in others close to me. There is a root of bitterness, anger, unforgiveness. Many "Godly" try to cover it up, but it WILL become exposed in the right circumstances. Also, ask step-children if they really LOVE the situation their parents have put them in-----having someone else be mommy or daddy to them? Ask them if they would rather have their mother/father repent and return to them(no matter how long it took) or have another person take their place? There are MANY very angry, hurt children out there. Their parents like to believe that they acted on their children's behalf by trying to replace their spouse, but the fact is, that the parent was not acting on behalf of their children, but on their OWN needs/wants.

 

Comment/question
You don't think this is controlling? It appears that this person (first spouse) wants this (first) marriage no matter what the other human being involved wants and decides to do, so they continue to pray asking the Lord to give them what they want and then they wait.
Response  
Controlling???? Wanting a person to repent from adultery and praying for such persons' repentance is "controlling"? Well, I personally hope you truly do not have this mindset. We are CALLED to pray for one another. We are called to help our brother/sister flee from BONDAGE of sin (and adultery is BONDAGE). Our calling is "ministers of reconciliation". We are not called to uplift the "desires" of others when what they want for themselves is DESTRUCTION. Do you think it evil for CHILDREN to pray for the father/mother to stop committing adultery and to have their family healed/restored?
Comment/question
I will answer this with a question. Do you think it's evil for children to pray for their parents marriage to end because daddy is hurting mommy and she might die? Please realize that this does happen and there are many testimonies from adults who will tell you that although they hate divorce, they are glad their parents divorced because all they saw was the misery/hate and this is not just in the world but this is the church also.

Do you think it's evil for children to pray for daddy to meet a new wife so he/she can have a new mommy? Do you think it's evil when they rejoice in the love and care they receive from their "new" mommy when the old one ditched the family because she loved her drugs and her boyfriend more?

Response  
ah, avoidance.

Do I think it's "evil" for kids to pray for the COVENANT parents' marriage to end, due to abuse? Yes........because it is against God's will for what HE joined together to be separated. Do I think it more scripturally sound AND of the right heart for children to pray for the abusive parent to be healed----even if that healing takes place AWAY from the family??? Yes, and that is what I would pray with my children if that were in my family or another family we were praying for. I would NEVER teach my children to pray for a COVENANT family to be torn apart PERMANENTLY---that is against the Lord's will as expressed in His Word.

Do I think it "evil" for kids encouraged by the parent to pray for a NEW mommy, when they already have a mommy?? Absolutely. I would encourage my children, if I was such a father, to LOVE their mother as Christ loves her and also to honor her because God commands that we HONOR our fathers and mothers (and that is not conditional). I would encourage my children to pray for their mother all the time, desiring to see her free from the bondage of sin. I would teach my children about "love never fails" and "love is longsuffering"..........because these attributes are pleasing to the Lord, because they are OF HIM.

Ok, I've answered your questions, now would you kindly answer the one I asked of you: "Do you think it evil for CHILDREN to pray for the father/mother to stop committing adultery and to have their family healed/restored?"

Comment/question
Nope. If that is what's going on then it's not evil but if this is the case where a man and woman are remarried after a divorce then this shouldn't be an issue in their prayers (i.e. adultery and family restoration). That child's prayers should reflect the truth of divorce and remarriage along with moms or dads prayers. But I can certainly admit that if mom or dad are living in an imaginary marriage, that delusion would cause them to teach their children the same way so you would find a child praying about this.

Response  
The problem is that you have ---ZERO---scriptures to show that the relationship Jesus called "adultery" is now a lawful marriage. So, in reality, if children are praying for their daddy/mommy to be unblinded and for him/her to SEE the adultery they are in, forsake it, and return home to HIS/HER family, they are merely praying in line with the Lord's Word.

Until you can give scripture to show that such relationships deemed as adultery by the Lord are NOT adultery, then I will hang with the clear Word of the Lord and encourage my children, as well as others to pray in accordance with the Lord's heart concerning covenant marriages.

 

Comment/question
Physical presence doesn't mean a child will do better. Having a father who is physically present but emotionally, spiritually or morally bankrupt, does that child no good, even though he will never divorce his wife. They just opt to sleep in separate rooms.

Response  
The thing in that situation is that there is ALWAYS hope for the "morally bankrupt" to change..........and if and when that occurs, the family is still INTACT. Many of the "step" situations/problems we read about in this forum would be non-existant.

 

Comment/question
I saw what for better for worse looked like and learned the importance of honoring a promise to God.

Response  
ah, and that is the crux of this whole thing..............honoring one's commitments to the marriage and promises made to the Lord. That in itself teaches more to our children than anything else----it also teaches them MUCH about God's kind of love.

I must say this: I see time and again much insecurity in second spouses(specially women)......either because they were the ones who entered into the covenant marriage (separating what God joined together by committing adultery with someone else's spouse) and rightly so have "trust" issues ("will he cheat on me too?"), or there is strong arming going on against the covenant spouse by the third party. Either way, the "third party" many times (especially if they were in the pic BEFORE a divorce occurred) forever has a "smudge" on them---in their in-laws eyes, the children involved eyes, as well as others who have seen the goings on. Case in point is Angela Jolie.........even though they now have a child together, how many people would love to see Brad Pitt leave and go back to his wife, Jennifer Aniston? Many, because right is right and wrong is wrong.

Personally, if someone left a marriage because of "issues" and I was the second spouse, I would always wonder if things got bad, would they leave me too. I would also worry about this if I reasoned this way concerning God's Grace, "so I committed adultery by marrying a divorced person-----God forgives me and now the marriage is "good" to this person."

The thing is, if the same such person argued hard against a spouse returning to the Covenant spouse because they say it's sin, they too would have to use the same reasoning concerning God's Grace: if it IS a sin to return to one's covenant spouse AFTER another marriage is contracted, then even if they leave and return to their spouse (the covenant), God will forgive them and then THEIR (the covenant couple) marriage would be "Good".................

What a mess!

 

Comment/question
Does God want children to not have a mother, or a father ... does He want them to live with their dad for 6 months and then with their mom for the other 6 months?

Of course not!
Response  
Of course the Lord would not want that, yet we see in scripture where that actually did happen-----the men forsook their wives and children as an act of repentance---because they had disobeyed the Lord (Ezra 9-10). Did it grieve the Lord to see these families having to suffer due to sin? Absolutely. Did the Lord's grief then change his mind about the nature of repenting (forsaking the forbidden relationships)? No. His judgment stood.

 

Comment/question
It seems those who use this argument put much more emphasis on the second marriage being binding than the first- and act like it is disgraceful to think about divorcing...why not feel that strongly about the first divorce? What about the kids, family, friends from that divorce?
Response  
Yes, this is a very puzzling thing to me. I see it brought out all the time---how horrible it is that a person would leave a second marriage, yet they do not put as much emphasis on the traumatic effects of first marriages that are forsaken. What if in the first family there 8, 9, 10 children? The husband leaves that family and finds a new wife. Oh he feels "bad", but not too bad cause he has a nice, new life----without all the daily stresses that he had before.

Someday, the Lord gets ahold of him and boy is he convicted of his previous actions and ongoing sin. Is it worse for him to stay with the second and leave the first family abandoned, or in God's sight would it be more admirable to repent from his adultery and return to the covenant witnessed by God---the marriage in which God took two and created ONE FLESH?...............

Comment/question
That is really a distortion of what has been said, I don't believe that second marriages are more binding than first marriages, I believe that both our equally binding! I also have never advocated for divorce in either case. I believe that divorce in either case is WRONG, and is the result of the sin of at least one spouse, if not both.

Response  
Now I'm confused. BOTH marriages can't be equally binding.........unless one believes polygamy is an honored by God practice.

Comment/question

This is really a straw man because your example could also be reversed, what about someone who has 8,9, or 10 children in a second marriage, and none in the first who would like to escape the pressures of his current marriage? Again I have never suggested that the first marriage and divorce was somehow less traumatic, less destructive, or less wrong. It is a misrepresentation to present it as so.
Response  
But you see, you have time and again spoken of how horrible it would be to walk away from a second marriage..........terribly sinful. Why, if as you believe both vows hold equal weight?

Comment/question

The reality is that most second marriages present far more difficulties then first, especially those that have begun out of a sinful relationship. Asking someone to keep the covenant they made is not letting them have a "nice, new life --- without all the daily stresses that he/she had before. It is asking them to honor God in the commitment they made.
Response  
But the problem is that God says that relationship is adultery...........so we honor God by continuing in our adultery? If a married man has a woman on the side (adultery), conceives a child with her and commits to never leaving her side.........will the Lord honor that commitment, being that he has a wife?

 

Comment/question

My 7yr old told me she does not want another Dad (since she now has a stepmom). I told her she will not have one, because I made a promise to God to love her Dad until he died, and we should never break a promise to God- even if others do. If you call being a testimony of faithfulness to my child "bitterness"... so be it. I don't think God sees it that way.
Response  
No, (name deleted), the Lord does NOT see your faithfulness as "bitterness".........and your child is truly blessed to actually see her mom walk out true faith and love. Those who "watch" your life.......and believe me, you are being watched, will KNOW Jesus because of you. They will understand that verse which states, "yet while we were sinners, Christ died for us"...............Blessings to you sister as you continue walking out I Cor. 13 towards your husband as well as towards those who opposed your message of love and obedience.

 

Comment/question

Why would a 7 year old say she does not want another Dad? It appears to be a negative statement. Why would she think this way? Be honest here. If you have sat down to explain to her as best you can, what has happened and you believe this doctrine of remarriage being adultery to be true, then it is no surprise she feels this way. This is what your pouring into her.

Any bright child upon hearing your statement above, "I made a promise to love Dad until he died and we should never break a promise to God", will then look at Dad and conclude that He is not following God.
Response  
Your reasoning, though somewhat correct (that parents DO have a huge influence on what their kids believe/say), is not completely true. I was a young child and I did NOT want another daddy. I wanted MY daddy in my life/home---imperfect as he was (as was my mother).

My mother certainly did not influence me wanting my dad and not another man in my life---it was something innate in me. The truth is that kids, almost all kids, want their own parents together. Sure, they don't want to see abuse, neglect, waywardness, etc..............but they DO want their parents together. The ill effects of the selfishness of divorce/replacement can be found in all the secular writings/studies that are out there.

Comment/question

That's your story and that's great but that is not the reality for all. There are as many children out there who wish their daddy would go away and stop hurting them and mommy. That is reality. And it absolutely matters how "bad" a parent is. I do agree that every child hates it when they see their parents mistreating each other and wish it would stop so they could be a real, loving family.
Response  
Oh, I agree in the respect that kids want abuse to stop........and they may want daddy/mommy out of the pic while they are abusing. However, that was not the issue. The issue being discussed was bringing in ANOTHER mommy/daddy. Most all kids of divorce I have known did NOT want another person in their parent’s life besides their mommy/daddy.  

 

Comment/question

Again you are twisting what has been said in order to prove your point. If you unwilling to honestly represent what I have said, how can you expect me to trust that you are honestly representing God's word.
Response  
You have stated that it is wrong for a deserted parent to teach their child the parent who has divorced and remarried, is in a sinful relationship. I am calling you on that statement, because you have no biblical support to justify such a position. Jesus calls the second relationship, adultery. What you are saying is that it is wrong for one parent to acknowledge the other parents sin to their child. I am in complete disagreement with you.

Comment/question

As I have said before. Yes it is wrong (sinful) for a husband or wife to walk out of their marriage and to peruse a relationship with another person. Yes, it is wrong for them to pursue a marriage with a person they are having an affair with. With a great deal of gentleness and wisdom, yes a child should be told that these actions are sinful, without supplying the child with details that they are unaware of, but that same child needs to also be told how very important forgiveness is when someone has committed an offense against us, and this needs to be demonstrated in the life of the parent who is honoring God.
Response  
It is not only wrong, it is sin. The second relationship is sin. It will be sin until it is forsaken. The deserting/remarrying one is in rebellion to God and they will suffer (if not now, later) for their rebellion. Do children need to know all the specifics? Of course not, but we do teach our children the 10 commandments, no? One of those is: Thou shalt not commit adultery. It is not wrong to tell our children if the one parent is committing adultery and to pray for them to repent from their sin. It is love to desire to see a loved one released from the power/bondage of sin and be restored to the Lord and those who the Lord joined them to. It is also love to desire the 3rd party (who may have a covenant spouse themselves they have left) to be restored to the Lord and reconciled with who God joined them to as well.

 

Comment/question

Are you suggesting that the believer who may have divorced unscripturally and come to this realization later in life after having been married for several years and after having had say three children in this 2nd marriage, should just walk away from his or her marriage and tear apart a loving family to satisfy a law which Christ has already fulfilled?

Please don't tell me that you are suggesting that.
How on Earth would that be a good thing?

This is what I am referring to when I say there is a wideness to the mercy and grace of God.
Response  
If God says a relationship is adultery, that indicates He does not recognize a divorce as dissolving what He joined together. Can you can show scripturally to a deserted wife/husband that their spouse no longer belongs to them in the eyes of the Lord but instead now belongs to the one God charges with adultery? If you cannot, then YES, if one is living in adultery, repentance WOULD require forsaking that relationship---because in God's eyes it is no different than an extramarital relationship. The fact that children may come from a relationship does not legitimize a sinful relationship to God. Many extra-marital affairs result in children.........What about the children from the LAWFUL marriage?  

 

Comment/question

And using your own scripture: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself."

According to you a man should leave his wife and kids over semantics. The everyman I speak of is a man whose wife left him of her own accord, and he remarried and currently has kids. I don't think that upholds the "greatest commandments".
Response  
If a man loves his neighbor, he will encourage his neighbor's wife to have a heart for the man she was joined to by God. He will NOT take her as his own.........

If a man truly loves his neighbor, he will not take his neighbor's children as his own...........

If a man loves his neighbor, he will not desire to be the cause of his neighbor's wife entering into sin by committing adultery with her..............

If a man loves his neighbor as he loves himself, he will desire to see his neighbor and spouse reconciled and the family GOD joined together as ONE, walking in unity.............


THESE are the heart of God towards one's neighbor.........


One last thing: If a man loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, strength and mind, he will not commit sin against His God and come between what His God has joined together as One...........

Can it honestly be said that one who DOES the above truly loves his neighbor or love the Lord? 

 

Comment/question

1. "Lose his salvation" from living in "constant sin"?
2. Abandon his family, leaving his 2nd spouse to raise the children in a broken home?

So according to you, the 'obedient' and 'Christian' thing to do would be option #2?
Response  
Yes and no. Abandon? Absolutely not. If such a man IS guilty of being in adultery, a Christian man would forsake the adulterous relationship. However, What a Christian(Godly) man would NOT do is abandon his responsibilities. He has children to care for---tangibly, emotionally, and spiritually. The woman he married---maybe she is a stay at home mom. He entered sin with her and caused her to be in this situation. He needs to take responsibility for her immediate needs as well, while keeping himself pure in the sight of the Lord.

Comment/question

You argue by quoting scripture, but you refuse to see the context of it. I can quote scripture all day to validate most arguments on most subjects, simply by taking it out of context. I can justify slavery, polygamy, even war.
Response  
We all can justify sinfulness when we take scripture out of context. When one focuses on the HEART of God, in regards to MDR, we can see that it is NEVER His will, desire, command, allowance, etc, etc, for a family to be destroyed and then part of that family to join with another family while a husband/wife, father/mother are still living. It is chaos for all involved. Taking another's wife/husband is hating your neighbor/defrauding your brother/sister. It is hurting the children involved---both those from the original families and those children who are born from the adulterous unions. For some to insist that God surely DOES give permission for what we are seeing today in regards to the destruction and family rearrangements/replacements/abandonments, etc, is incomprehensible.

 

Comment/question

For people to insist that children, who were abused by a birthparent and who have since found stability, safety and unconditional love with a step-parent, be ripped out of that safe and loving environment is reprehensible.

To say that God insists upon it is evil.
Response  
Most of us, (name deleted), were not born to perfect parents. Some of us have had much LESS than perfect parents. However, that does not negate what God has said about the marriage bond. Stability for the unsaved is sought in varying ways, yet for the one who professes to love and follow Christ, stability, protection, trust, TRUE unconditional love, are found in the arms of Jesus. The problem is that many who profess to know Him do not trust Him enough to follow Him in dark times. They instead try to find comfort and security in man, even if it means disobeying the Lord who bought them. The Lord wants us to TRUST Him for our provision. He wants to give us HIS heart towards the wayward, which is a heart which desires to see the wayward come to repentance, return to the Lord and be reconciled with his/her family. 

Comment/question

For all your good intentions you have no idea to whom you preach and the extent to which He has been trusted nor the unfathomable depth of the dark times. What you seem to think you know is an insult to those who do know.
Response  
There are people who have faced much more difficult times than familial abuse situations...........and they continued walking in obedience through their great sufferings. No believer can justify walking in disobedience due to their personal circumstances. When one tries to do so, they can easily find another whose situation was MUCH worse than theirs and that person continued walking obediently. 

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