"Look at the legalized adultery we call divorce.
Men marry one wife after another and are still admitted into good
society; and women do likewise. There are thousands of supposedly
respectable men in American living with other men's wives, and thousands
of supposedly respectable women living with other women's husbands."
- R. A. Torrey From R.A. Torrey's book How to Pray, pages 94-95
R.A. Torrey (1856-1928) was a very well-known Christian writer,
evangelist, pastor, graduate of Yale University, and was also the
superintendent of Moody Bible Institute for 19 years.
TRINITY BARS THE
DIVORCED.; No Remarriage in the Church or Any of the Chapels.
The clergy of Trinity Church announced yesterday that under no
circumstances will divorced persons be married by any of the clergy of
that Episcopal parish, nor will such marriages be permitted either in
the church at Wall Street and Broadway or in any one of the parish's
eight chapels. The announcement was as follows:
View full article New York Times
December 7, 1904, Wednesday
Comment/question
“Commits adultery” is a one time act, not a constant state.
Response
I disagree with you and so does the
Greek...........
Here is the Lexicon's definition of committeth adultery:
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3429 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
moicavw from (3432)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Moichao 4:729,605
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
moy-khah'-o Verb
Definition
to have unlawful intercourse with
another's wife, to commit adultery with
King James Word Usage - Total: 6 commit adultery 6 KJV Verse Count
Matthew 2 Mark 2
If one has unlawful intercourse with ANOTHER'S wife, how can that be the
adulterers wife? If the act of marriage is ADULTERY, how can it then be
a lawful marriage?
Comment/question
By that definition it still does not imply
that it is a constant state of adultery.
Response
If you are having unlawful relations with
another man's wife, how is that NOT a constant state as long as one
STAYS with that other man's wife?
Also, we have Rom. 7:2-3 in which Paul said that a woman who marries
again while her husband is still alive will be called an ADULTERESS.
This does not signify that her remarriage was one act of
adultery...........she is branded an adulteress............while her
husband lives (because she would be in an illicit relationship should
she remarry).
Comment/question
The question remains then, Would you agree HE
would not put together something He calls adulterous/sin?
Response
I think this is ultimately the point that each
of us needs to understand. Some of us have discerned from the Word of
God that He will NOT join together ANY relationship that HE (not us)
calls sin----whether it be the sin of fornication, adultery,
homosexuality, incest, bestiality, etc.
Some believe and teach that God will not join MOST of those sinful
relationships, but that He WILL join "SOME" forms of adultery. For me,
this is just not supportable with the Word of God. Some teach that in
the case of remarriage(which Jesus calls adultery because the former
bond has not been dissolved), all one has to do is confess the sin of
adultery, then the relationship is THEN joined by God as ONE. Again, no
scripture to support such a viewpoint.
The problem: what about all the people who do NOT confess their
adultery? Are they STILL in the sin of adultery? If they never confess,
will they die with God seeing them married to another(the covenant
spouse)?
In addition, as has been noted time and time again on this thread, why
is remarriage adultery in a whole different category? Why is it that
only confession is necessary, yet in ALL other illicit relationships,
the RELATIONSHIP needs to end as a FRUIT or repentance? If I'm in an
"extra-marital" relationship (adultery), then true repentance would
entail me LEAVING that relationship and returning to my covenant spouse.
However, in remarriage adultery, one does NOT have to leave their
adultery, but they can confess the sin and STAY with the NON-COVENANT
person they are with. They say that because their other spouse(covenant)
may have "moved on" (committed adultery also), they should stay in their
current relationship. However, when presented with a "standing" spouse
waiting for the erring to turn from their adulterous remarriage, they
have no real argument concerning the nature of repentance in such cases.
The fact is, scripturally speaking, the erring is IN adultery----not WAS
in adultery. The one standing is aligned with God and His Word. The one
erring in TRUE repentance, would forsake their adultery and return home
to the one "standing" in the covenant made with the other person AND
GOD.
Again, it all come down to WHO God sees one joined to? If HE did not
join two as One(in a covenant marriage), it means THEY joined themselves
together----in the flesh.........and they ARE in sin until they forsake
that sin. Scripture is clear that there are different "joinings"...........one
is in regards to sexually illicit unions and the other is in regards to
that which God joins together(lawful marriage)---until death separates
it.
Comment/question
My husband just got born again a few months ago. He could NOT have
received Gods grace, mercy and freedom from the bondage of addiction if
we were living in a continual state of adultery.
Response
That is not true. EVERY person who becomes born again is entrenched in
some sin or another. The Lord doesn't wait until we are "sin free"
before He will 'deliver' us.
What
is true is that the Lord is merciful many times to deal with one sin at
a time, but that doesn't mean the ones He hasn't yet addressed are not
sin.......they are just "unknown" to the person as of that point. This
is true for all of us. Most all people who come to saving faith in Jesus
and don't know all their sins, still practice sin, yet the Lord's Grace
is extended.
Comment/question
Divorce and remarriage is NOT adultery, unless the divorced person -
that is, not the Plaintif but the Respondent - remarries. Then both he
or she and his or her spouse are committing adultery, because, the
person who committed adultery first, when they were still married to
their first spouse, is the person who should remain unmarried as a
punishment for their sin
Response
(name deleted), that is not what Jesus spoke. How do you fit that
reasoning in with Paul's teaching that it is not due to punishment that
a woman is prohibited from remarrying, but because the BOND of marriage
to a first husband remains intact until that husband dies? (
Comment/question
ONLY if there is GENUINE repentance and a change of course by the one
who broke the marriage covenant, is there the slightest glimmer of hope
for a meaningful reconciliation, but, even that cannot be at the beck
and call of others. Broken hearts take time to mend.
Response
Exactly, yet what you would say is OK with the Lord (remarrying another
while one has a living spouse) flies in the face of what you just spoke
above. To remarry says that I WILL NOT allow healing to occur with the
possibility of RECONCILIATION with the one God joined me to----the
offense is just too great and I am not willing to wait until they come
to full repentance. I would ask this: is THIS the mind/heart of Jesus
Christ toward the sinner? Does He wash His hands of us BEFORE the day of
judgment?
We want to demand time to HEAL from hurts, bitterness, anger, etc (some
of which are very sinful things to deal with), but concerning the
"sinful" one, we don't want to allow time for repentance---full and
genuine, to take place. We want to get on with life. If we grab hold of
this mindset, are we walking in the light---as HE is in the light?
One more thing to ponder: What better person than one who is called by
His name, to stand in the gap (intercede) for the one HE joined them to
when they sin (whatever that sin may)? Is that not a reflection of
Christ towards His Body?
Comment/question
Many times those who don't believe in divorce say they are bound to
uphold their vows and will not break them. It is clear however,
that they are only adhering to "one" of those vows - till death do part.
The rest of the vows, are put down. How many of the bound but freed
support their spouses financially even after a second marriage? How many
continue the physical relationship, making themselves available to the
remarried spouse? I think if we are honest very few if any actually
uphold those vows.
Response
I know people on both sides of the fence concerning having relations
with one God has joined you to while they are continuing in adultery
(whether through extra-marital relations or through a remarriage). Some
feel that they SHOULD not deny the one God joined them too, though their
spouse is continuing in sexual unfaithfulness by being with another
person. It is THEIR spouse---divorce or not/ remarriage or not. Their
spouse does not belong to the other person they are committing adultery
with.
Others feel it is ok to deny when the unfaithful partner refuses to
repent from their adutlery-----but they do not REJECT the partner in
full, only that part of the relationship. The do continue to pray for
the erring spouse that they would come to a place of repentance and
restoration of the marriage (I Cor. 7:10-11).
We must remember that those that DO choose to have relations with their
ONE FLESH are not committing adultery. The other woman/man in the
picture that has joined themself to another's spouse is the one
committing adultery. They are the "third party"............one who is
defrauding their brother/sister and is not walking in the second great
commandment: Love your neighbor. If one does love their neighbor, they
will not involve themself with a person who has been joined by God to
another. They will find their OWN husband/wife.
Comment/question
Any woman who would sleep with her former remarried husband, has to do
some serious brain-washing to not believe she has just committed
adultery herself.
Response
Again, it would be the new "wife" who is committing adultery in the
Lord's sight, not the ONE FLESH wife. The new "wife" separated what God
joined together and she will be held accountable for that if she
continues to dwell with another woman's husband. Paul was very clear
that every woman was to have her OWN husband, not another woman's
husband and every man was to have his OWN wife, not take another mans'
wife as his own.
Comment/question
It would seem "till death do part" is considered the most important vow
while the things that actually make a marriage can be dispensed with in
these cases.
Response
1 Corinthians 13 should be what is in view here. We, as Christians, are
called to LOVE our spouses............whether they are with us or not
with us, til death do us part, we are called to walk in I Cor. 13. Many
are trying to do just this-----while their spouses remain in unrepentant
sin with a partner in adultery. THIS is loving "in good times and
bad"..........this is longsuffering love, this is true agape
love----
Comment/question
Scripture teaches if you break one law you are guilty of breaking the
whole thing. So the soul that says, "I didn't fulfill any of my other
duties, but I didn't divorce my spouse!" doesn't seem like a place to
claim brownie points!
Response
ah, you are right. just because one doesn't divorce doesn't mean they
are loving their spouse as they should. However, just because one is not
doing what they should be doing, does not give the other license to
throw out the entire marriage itself and seek a partner in adultery to
replace the person God joined them to.
Comment/question
The fact is that even though some who are divorced claim to not
recognize the second-marriage in their minds, they do so in practice. By
their actions, they show they really believe different than what they
say.
Response
No, you are incorrect. Have you ever read the Early Church Father's
writings----the Antenicene to be exact? There is one writing (before
100ad) written by the Pastor of Hermas. He deals exactly with the issue
of a spouse who is committing adultery. He says that the "innocent" one
may divorce such an unrepentant one, but they are not free to marry, or
else they would too be guilty of adultery.
This is what the early church believed. Divorce was separation of bed
and board, not a dissolving of the marriage. What he wrote aligns
perfectly with what Paul said the Lord commanded those who departed.
They remained unmarried OR reconciled with their spouses. So, those
spouses who choose not to have relations with the one God joined them to
are not acting any differently that what was understood by the Early
Church to be the correct response to an adulterous spouse.
Comment/question
When Paul spoke in Romans concerning the Gentiles without the law he
says that though they didn't have the law, when they upheld any part of
it, they show the law is written in their hearts. In the same way,
anytime the free but bound, walk in accordance to what is expected when
dealing with a married couple (not offering themselves sexually to the
former spouse, not supporting the household of the former spouse, etc.)
they show that the law is written in their hearts. They know it would be
wrong even though they claim to still be the true spouse of the departed
one.
Response
You are biblically inaccurate. Such a person who DOES claim to be the
rightful spouse is merely speaking the Word of God in truth. Those who
have joined themselves in adultery do not want to believe what the
written Word of God says though. They would rather turn to the
reasonings/laws of man to justify their evil deeds.
Comment/question
You will also understand why some remarriages take place and why they
are amazingly blessed by God. You will understand how some remarriages
are great reflections of the relationship of Christ and His church and
serve as a real light to the world and bring true honor and glory to
God.
Response
Blessed? I do believe God's MERCY (not blessings) are upon many
such remarriages---as well as many other sinful relationships. I know
quite a few remarriages in which the persons have come to see their
adulterous state and repented (have forsaken) those relationships. God's
MERCY was there for them to see it and have the power to flee the
sin. His blessings came AFTER they decided to follow Him in forsaking
their sin. Many try to justify remarriage based on "outward"
appearances, yet this is opposite of what Jesus directs us to do. He
tells us to judge RIGHTEOUS judgment (based upon not what we see, but
what we KNOW to be truth). In His Word we also find that the WICKED seem
to prosper.............and God's people seem to suffer...............yet
we know---by His Word, that this is only for a season and we are not to
judge such things by OUTWARD appearances, believing that because someone
"appears" to be blessed, that surely God's blessings must be upon them.
Comment/question
We need to understand the higher principles of life that I mentioned
earlier. This is not about selfishness or marrying for convenience. I
think that is an insult to all those who tried all they could to save
their marriages under the worst conditions and have it still end up in
divorce.
Response
Many walk in ignorance of the Truths found in the Word of God and in
understanding HIS heart/Will..........and that many times is why some
enter into adulterous marriages----not out of outright rebellion, but
because they knew no better and just followed other's actions. For them,
when they come to the truth, it is very painful..........because they
truly DO love Jesus, yet did not really seek HIS will for their lives.
Those I do not worry so much about as they, when they come to truth,
will rectify their disobedience, because they DO love Jesus more than
self. Unfortunately, there are many who DO see what Jesus says, but will
defiantly go their own way, even trying to justify their evil deeds,
using/twisting the Word of God to do so. These I worry about---eternally
speaking.
Comment/question
When you ask if they get to keep their spouses once they have divorced
wrongly and married another, my answer would be yes.
Response
Wow, you are saying that you can keep that which does not belong to you.
That speaks volumes to me!
As (name deleted) has shown, using the definition of
adultery............Jesus is saying that when someone marries another's
spouse, they are joining with one who is not their own.
How can one then be married to one that is not their own? They can't.
They are having relations with one who belongs to another. I have seen
time and again, those who for their own gain, CLING to Deut. 24, but
reject the other "laws" Moses gave. Why? Because they want to
desparately keep what does not belong to them. They have hated their
neighbor, defrauded their brother/sister, and do not want to turn from
this. They want to acknowledge that what they have done is covered by
the Grace of God. They want to label a covenant marriage as a sin that
can be repented of. The thing is that the covenant marriage(the one God
joined) is not a sin----the sin lies with the divorce and if applicable
the remarriage. Those are the only two things that need to be repented
of.
If one is divorced and not wanting to reconcile, they should repent of
this mindset and ask the Lord for the heart to pray for and desire to
reconcile what God joined together. If one/both of the parties have
remarried, they need to acknowledge they have joined themselves to
someone who does not belong to them, forsake the sin of adultery, and
ask the Lord to work for reconciliation.............and if that is not
possible, for the strength to live for Him in their
singleness..............
Comment/question
Now, don't get it wrong. I'm not saying anyone who has remarried has
stolen another's property although that may be the case in some
scenarios, but what I am saying is that it's not always true that God
requires one to give back, even if it was really stolen.
Response
Try to explain that one away with scripture.
Comment/question
Remarriages will occur and God knows it and blesses it.
Response
Again, try to explain/prove that statement with scripture.
Comment/question
Someone said earlier that the blessing is really God's mercy. Great!
God's mercy is a blessing because God showing mercy means that although
you have done wrong and perhaps a great wrong (divorced unjustly and
remarried illegally)
Response
His mercy is, that in such cases, the adulterer/adulteresses are not
stoned, but are give opportunity to forsake their sin............that is
God's mercy. He does not bless what He calls sin.
Comment/question
Right, wrong, evil or good, once they marry, it's done!
Response
Explain that to Jesus, since he calls the next union, adultery. I guess
you feel God does not know what He's talking about, eh?
Comment/question
For those who believe the Bible teaches that staying remarried
following divorce means one is constantly in an adulterous relationship,
I have some questions. If one of your parents had been married before,
then divorced, and has now been married to your other parent for over 40
years, what should the response of the (adult) child be regarding things
like anniversaries? Is it sinful to recognize the anniversary because
you are "celebrating" a sinful relationship?
I am
reposting these questions above because I think they got lost in the
shuffle. Also, I will add some more questions. If both parties from the
first marriage have remarried (and remained in their respective
remarriage relationships for over forty years), do you believe that both
parties should divorce their current spouses and try to be reconciled to
one another? I realize that many of you believe those second marriages
should never have happened, but the fact is, they did. I don't think
anyone involved has ever thought that they were now living in an
adulterous relationship. But suppose they come on this thread and become
convinced that the second marriage relationship is an adulterous one.
Then should they both divorce the partners they have been with for over
forty years and reconcile to one another?
Response
I know of a woman who has been "standing" for the restoration of her
marriage for over 35 years---he is remarried many years and has a
daughter with his 2nd wife.........I also know of another woman whose
husband left her and their 2 young boys in her early twenties--he also
remarried. She is now in her early 40's.........She still wears her
wedding ring and is waiting for her husband to come to repentance and
have her family restored. There are MANY, MANY of the same stories.
You are bringing back the point of what I said in my last. People mostly
focus on the sinful relationship (adultery) and how breaking that off
will hurt those involved---and how surely that can't be God's will. What
about the RIGHTFUL spouse (in God's eyes) who is STANDING for the
restoration of their covenant marriage/family? These questions are why
we NEED to focus only on what God's Word says about marriage----which
ones are lawful to Him and which ones are not, and act in accordance
with His Word in regards to repentance/forsaking sinful relationships.
For me, in regards to celebrating anniversaries and such of close family
members that are in adulterous marriages, I could not partake in the
celebration. That would be hypocritical of me, knowing/believing what I
do now, wouldn't it? I would, in essence, be celebrating a sinful
relationship. It would be akin to me going to someone's "housewarming"
party who is not married, but living in fornication. I would not
celebrate them living together, just as I would not celebrate a couple
who are living in adultery---per the Lord's Words.
I hope I answered your questions. I know how easy it is for a post to
get "lost" in this discussion as there are so many posts!!!! If I didn't
answer something, please ask again and I will be happy to answer.
Comment/question
If he has remarried, he is not committing adultery with his current
wife. I don't believe he still belongs to his first wife.
Response
"I believe............I don't believe"....................it matters not
what we "believe/don't believe"..........it matters what the Lord said.
He said to enter into another marriage after a divorce was adultery. You
say, no it is not. Adultery means the person one is
involved with is NOT their spouse. You say, they are the
rightful spouse. Sorry, I have to believe Jesus said what He meant and
meant what He said. If a remarriage was LAWFUL, one would not commit
adultery by joining with that person.
Comment/question
Since he has married again, that ends the hope of reconciliation as I
shared before. If he had not remarried, then I would still believe the
divorce ended the marriage but they could still be reconciled.
Response
Again, if the marriage is adultery, it is not a lawful union----it is
adultery, and adultery CAN and SHOULD be forsaken. We can try and put a
"legal" stamp on a relationship, but God is not mocked. When two come
together in "relations" in such a situation, what the Lord looks down
and sees are two people profaning the covenant of marriage and two
people who are sinning against Him and their lawful spouses.
Comment/question
God calling anyones former spouse to wait for another divorce to occur
so their family can be restored. Again that is really extra-biblical
stuff.
Response
No, not "extra-biblical", very biblical: I Corinthians. 7:10-11.
Comment/question
That may well be but the reality is that people divorce and remarry.
Response
Yes, the reality is that many are committing sin, sexual and otherwise.
Just because this is the case does not mean God "winks" at it and
excuses it. If Jesus said remarriage was adultery after a divorce takes
place, it is because the divorce did NOT dissolve the marriage God
joined together. It is absolutely no different than two people have an
extramarital affair-----no different. One cannot use ANY NT teachings on
marriage, divorce, remarriage to prove otherwise.
Comment/question
As I said, anything can happen from the point of divorce on if no one
remarries. Again, the point is that if one of them does remarry, there
is no more "intact" for the first marriage. The marriage is over and
they must, if they want to live in truth, deal with that fact.
Response
No, the marriage is not over. Again, if Jesus doesn't acknowledge a
divorce as dissolving a marriage, then any relationship entered
into----though it is "legal" by civil standards, it is adultery to the
Lord, because they are still bound to their covenant mate.
Comment/question
This teaching is not about those families that are waiting while both
are not remarried even though divorced. This doctrine is trying to speak
to those whose ex-spouses have remarried and to those who have remarried
with Biblical permission. If the family remains physically intact and
the offender repents and the family is healed, fantastic! I'm sure we
all know this happens but when one divorces and remarries, that is
different. You want them to act as if they are still married as if that
will make it true but it does not.
Response
When any of us who hold to this speak/write on this issue, it is with
hope that marriages will be SPARED from going down the road of divorce
and later remarriage. We don't want people to find themselves in
opposition to the Lord's Word. Finding oneself in adultery and having to
rectify it is not an easy task. If they would have worked on their first
marriage, prayed, obeyed the Lord, etc, instead of "moving on", they
would have been spared the heartache of repentance and they would have
spared the third party and all children involved, heartache.
Again, and I will keep saying this: If Jesus doesn't acknowledge a
divorce as dissolving what HE joined together---------then the marriage
IS still intact and the person who remarries is committing adultery with
this third party...........and the third party is committing adultery
with someone else's husband/wife.
Comment/question
So is your stance of Biblically-allowed remarrieds living in "continual
adultery" or "perpetual sin".
Response
Again, I cannot speak for others in this, but the truth is that Jesus
calls such relationships adultery (because said participants belong to
others in the Lord's eyes). Unless one can prove by the Word of God that
such relationships change into lawful ones, they we must believe the
Lord when He labels such as sinful. Many want to say that confession
changes adulterous unions into lawful ones, but that "process" does not
work with any other illicit relationship. The fact that the laws of the
land have put their stamp of approval on said relationships does not
change the Lord's view on them.
Comment/question
You would be wise to remember that NO marital union should be held above
the value and worth of the people IN them. Those that insist on doing so
are marriage idolators. IMO, Jesus was more concerned about people than
offices or states of matrimony ..... and His covenant is FIRST extended
to the people He came and died for and rose again for.
Response
You are right. The Lord is concerned about the people in covenant
marriages, yet, please do not minimize the importance of covenant
marriage as the Word of God likens this relationship to Christ and the
Church. It is IN this covenant relationship that we LEARN to LOVE as
Christ loves. It is in THIS relationship that we portray to a lost world
what a relationship with Jesus should be like----if one or both are
following the Lord in how they relate to their covenant spouse.
Comment/question
So is your stance that one should divorce an existing spouse in order to
seek to remarry a first spouse .... even if that first spouse has also
remarried. So, we could conceivably have TWO marriages destroyed by yet
another divorce .... heaping sin upon sin. If your MDR concepts were
widely accepted and applied, then millions of Christians throughout the
generations would be held to damaging and abusive and lonely existences.
Response
Many are holding to lonely existences, --BECAUSE they are being obedient
to the Lord and their love of God is more important than this present
life---which is but a puff of smoke. Jesus warned us that those who seek
to save their lives shall lose it. Many who are "lonely" in this life
shall be rewarded in the next because they chose rather to LOSE their
lives for Christ's sake and His kingdom----remaining faithful in an
unfaithful world. If you think many ARE faithful, ponder the words of
Jesus: "when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith?" Many are not
willing to day to die to self and live for Jesus...........yet, that IS
what a True believer is called to do.
Comment/question
I pray that your hearts be softened ......
Response
It is my prayer that ALL of our hearts be softened so that we LOVE as
Jesus loves. It is my prayer that those who are in sin will forsake
their sin in repentance and that those who are crying out to the Lord
because of forsaken covenants, will experience restoration and all
involved be healed.
Comment/question
Come to think of it, there is NO worse of a personal attack than to
claim that a Biblically divorced and Biblically remarried person is
living in "perpetual sin" or "adultery".
Response
"Whosoever divorces and marries another commits adultery. Whosoever
marries one divorced commits adultery."
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the
I make no false accusations, but I will lift up the Word of God in hopes
that "all will come to repentance"............and better yet, that many
will not find themselves in this situation because they ignorantly
followed the masses into their sin.............The temporal
repercussions are hard enough let alone the eternal ones..
Comment/question
This
is where the teaching about a divorce not dissolving a marriage comes in
and where the belief that although divorced you are actually still
married. Of course that leads to the remarriage adultery theory.
Response
A theory??? Jesus said in NT teachings that divorce does not dissolve
what HE joins together, hence it is ADULTERY after a divorce for
said parties to join with others.
If a divorce DID dissolve what GOD joined together, then
it would not be adultery for said persons to marry others, would it?
You
know what's really sad to me? It is that some continue to go to great
lengths to justify adultery...........they ignore Jesus' very clear
words on this issue of covenant marriage, trying their best to find some
"wiggle" room. In the end, try as some may, they WILL find that there
just is NO justification to take what God has joined together and come
between that and claim those who do such things are then in "blessed"
unions. When Jesus spoke of such unions, He did not label them as
"blessed", but as sinful.
Comment/question
Understand this. I am simply posting what I have studied in the Word.
Respond to me if you are refuting what I am putting out there with true
Bible study. That is what I'm interested in.
Response
I don’t mind a good bible study............if it is with a heart to
truly come to truth. I think I have put scripture upon scripture out
there.........Jesus' very own words, matter of fact. That's why I find
it very hard to take your "theory" comment. Jesus, by His own words,
shows that divorce does not dissolve what He joins together. You can try
and pull all the OT passages you like which "appear" to say otherwise,
but the fact remains that Jesus spoke very CLEARLY on the issue. One
cannot possibly commit adultery by remarriage if their previous one was
dissolved, could they?
Comment/question
I
Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the
Response
Let's take that further and quote what Paul also wrote in the same
chapter farther down: verses 18-20: "18 Flee immorality.
Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral
man sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who
is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in
your body".
Comment/question
So,
in light of that, you MUST agree with I Cor. 6:9-10. You see these
people as "wicked", "adulterers", and in "continual sin". You have
consistently maintained this errant position ever since I have seen you
post .... here and elsewhere.
Response
Go back to the verses right before the ones you quoted: I Cor.
6:7-8----"Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have
lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be
defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do
this even to your brethren".
Then Paul goes on to tell them NOT to be deceived............that the
unrighteous will NOT inherit the
Comment/question
Now,
Cindy, you are convinced that a Biblical remarriage amounts to
"perpetual adultery" and that couple is sinning unless they divorce .
Response
Jesus said such unions are adultery. That means they are involved with
someone else's spouse---having UNLAWFUL relations with them. Paul said
that if a woman marries while her husband is still alive she shall BE
CALLED an adulteress. Adulteress is a LABEL........it shows lifestyle.
Paul also says in Rom. 7 that until the husband dies, the wife is NOT
free to marry another. He is exactly in line with what Jesus spoke on
the issue while He walked the earth.
Comment/question
.....
and even seek to cause the divorces of the ex's, if they have remarried
.... in order to return to what your group refers to as their "covenant
spouse".
Response
It matters not if the other covenant spouse has joined with
another----they too are in the sin of adultery. Just because two may
agree to divorce/sin, that agreement does not null and void what God has
joined together. God is the creator of marriage and HE alone determines
how marriage is to be used. He has said that marriage endures until one
of the covenant spouses dies. Only then, may the other one marry again
(to one who is "free" to marry).
Comment/question
In
this chapter, (1 Samuel 12) God called His people, under the king, to
serve Him with their whole hearts. They
were allowed to keep the king they chose and the king chosen for them by
God.
Response
Wow, so you mean to tell me that if I am married to Billy Bob, then I
get involved with Bucky on the side, even though it's adultery to God, I
get to keep Bucky(the one I chose to sin with) AND Billy Bob(the
one God chose for me)?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................
Comment/question
No
that isn't what I'm saying. Billy Bob will probably divorce you, go off
and get married again. If he becomes a Christian your saying he should
divorce his current wife and try to be reconciled to you. That is what
I'm saying is wrong with this teaching. For the guilty perhaps I could
go for it but for the innocent, it's entirely unjust.
Response
What if Billy Bob doesn't divorce me? What if he stays with me hoping I
will someday give up my lover? Is God ok with me having BOTH men? Also,
why do you differentiate concerning the "guilty"? Either a marriage is
dissolved by a remarriage/divorce/adultery or it is not...........being
the "guilty" party or innocent does not change whether an original
marriage is intact or not in regards to "some" remarriages.
Comment/question
If
you are married to Billy Bob then of course you must repent of the
adultery.
Response
By repent, you mean to forsake that sinful union, right?
Comment/question
But
if you are divorced, and you married Bucky, it may be horrible to Billy
Bob that the marriage born of adultery exist but there is still no
biblical demand to divorce.
Response
Ah, but Jesus said that the new union was adultery, so the divorce did
not dissolve the original marriage, did it? If it did not dissolve the
original marriage, then wouldn't a "remarriage/adulterous union" be the
same thing in the Lord's eyes as an extramarital affair---especially
when one of the original partners (say the "innocent" one) wants the
marriage restored?
Comment/question
Wonderful if Billy Bob doesn't want to give up on reconciliation
Response
Yes, because that would fulfill Billy Bob's vows in tthe Lord's sight
concerning the marriage. Billy Bob would be walking out I Cor. 13 and
would reflect the Lord Jesus Christ in his actions towards an
erring/adulterous wife.
Comment/question
if
you divorce him and marry your lover, Billy Bob should now move it
along.
Response
The problem with that is that there is NO scripture which shows it ok
for an adulteress to "move on" and then have that second relationship
sanctioned while her first husband is alive. To the contrary, we have
God's Word which states the EXACT opposite of what you speak---
Comment/question
If
Billy bob divorces you and remarries, you have no claim when you decide
to repent. You lost out! You also at that point need to move it along.
Response
No, scripture teaches that Billy Bob too will commit adultery if he
joins with another woman. Scripture teaches that EVERY man
who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery (here is the
all inclusive, PDC-----I noticed you placed GREAT emphasis on all
inclusive terms). For those who continue to state that they take ALL
scripture into account, I see the exact opposite. Those who teach
remarriage adultery CAN be continued, are resting on 1 passage that is
taken out of context. A man who divorces such a wife (even if she is
repentant) is at odds with the Lord Jesus----who is ready to forgive ALL
who repent and ready to reconcile them to Himself. What you are teaching
is that man (especially saved man who is a REPRESENTATIVE of Jesus
Christ on this earth) does not have to do as Jesus does, but instead can
follow that which appeals to the FLESH instead.
Comment/question
Should you have married Bucky? No. But the fact remains that you did and
that can be said of many who haven't come to Christ yet. I simply reject
a second divorce as being the solution to this problem.
Response
You reject that because you must believe that although Jesus calls the
second union adultery, you believe that new vows supercede the original
vows, yes? You reject that Jesus sees this new union as adulterous, even
though that is exactly how HE labels it.
Comment/question
When
Jesus called these marriages adultery, He stopped right there. He didn't
leave any instruction as to what to do. He told no one to divorce.
Response
So, because you think in such a manner, then you also believe it was AOK
for the woman at the well return to the man she was living
with.............because Jesus didn't give her exact instructions on how
to handle that relationship???
Comment/question
The
same is true of Paul. In all the marital issues that he dealt with,
there is not one time he suggested that the remarried couple should
divorce. It's just not there. It's been added to the Word and that's a
real problem.
Response
No one has added anything to the Word. Jesus and Paul BOTH taught that
we are to forsake (repent) our sin. Are you now saying that we should
NOT forsake our sin as it is made known to us as such? That until we see
every single particular situation addressed in detail, we don't have to
forsake our sin, we can continue to practice those things the Lord calls
sin.
Comment/question
There
can be no doubt pain is involved. Both sides experience that. Those who
have been hurt and those who have inflicted the hurt. Unfortunately the
children do suffer as a result of the parents actions. That is just a
fact. That doesn't mean however, that a second divorce will solve the
problems.
Response
The problem that a Christian should be concerned with is not so much
that actions he/she takes will improve their life/other's lives(solve
their problems), it is that they are being obedient to the Lord by
forsaking the sin they are in, no matter what the cost! Sometimes
forsaking an adulterous unions does not "feel" pleasant, but the one who
leaves their sin behind will walk with the assurance that all is well
between them and the Lord---and there is NOTHING more important than
that.
Comment/question
The
issue I was addressing is whether it is biblical to divorce a second
time. That is the point of the posting. I know you won't agree based on
your stand but your response is not addressing the Scripture.
Response
Is is biblical? Yes. Read again Ezra 9-10. Do you discount THAT event,
which very much more reflects this discussion (unlike the Sam. passage
you quoted).
Comment/question
Sometimes it helps to see injustice when you deal from the perspective
of the innocent (not sinless) spouse. For example, when dealing with a
man whose wife left him for another man, divorced him and married her
lover, I think it's easier to see how unjust this teaching is regarding
this man getting remarried. What this teaching does is hold the innocent
in bondage to the guilty until the guilty decides to change, if they
decide to repent which may not happen at all. That's a problem.
Response
What I can see from your reasonings is that it is flesh based, not
spirit based. We are called to LOVE those who hurt us............not
retaliate, not fix our lives how we want them to be.............we are
called to LOVE----especially those to whom the Lord joined us together.
Again, Paul teaches that every man/woman is to have their OWN spouse,
not someone elses. I know this is offensive for some, but I cannot help
saying that what is going on in the church and world is nothing more
than husband/wife swapping and that I am confident to say is
reprehensible to the Lord and an affront to the marriage covenant
relationship HE created.
Comment/question
All your doctrine is really doing is causing folks to stay in permanent
separated states because they never divorce. They don't live together.
Response
It doesn’t matter if a civil divorce takes place or not. Divorce does
not dissolve what God joined together. That is why remarriage is
adultery. To stay in a permanent separated state is not the Lord's will
either. If that does happen it means one or both are in rebellion to the
Lord.
Comment/question
If you want to be single. Great!!!
Response
Yes, I Corinthians 7:10-11. "Remain unmarried or be reconciled".
Comment/question
If not, remarry as the Scripture tells us of the unmarried but this
limbo thing is highly out of order whether it be legal (they didn't get
divorced) or it be all in the mind.
Response
You are adding to the Word of God allowances that are just not
there-----allowances that will cause your brother/sister to stumble
(sin).
Comment/question
I guess I wonder what makes them adulterous. Maybe the issue is not
whether the divorce dissolved the marriage or not. Maybe a clue comes
from understanding what Jesus meant when he called those who looked for
a sign an "adulterous generation". Was it the looking for a sign that
made them adulterous? I don't think so. This is just a thought at the
moment.
Response
You better get this down straight before you continue to counsel people
that divorce dissolves marriages that God joined together. Making
statements of fact, when in fact, you are not solidified on the issue is
harmful at the very least.
Comment/question
“If
it did not dissolve the original marriage, then wouldn't a
"remarriage/adulterous union" be the same thing in the Lord's eyes as an
extramarital affair---especially when one of the original partners (say
the "innocent" one) wants the marriage restored?”
I'll
get back to you on this one after I check out the above.
Response
Again, you need to study to show yourself approved BEFORE you speak that
remarriage is merely a "one time sin of entrance". Until you can prove
BY THE WORD OF GOD, that covenant marriages are dissolved by a divorce,
you should not be teaching that.
Comment/question
But
there are also many more scriptures that say that Jesus meets us in this
place that we are in, so that where He is, we may be also.
Response
The passage you quoted is taken out of context. Jesus is speaking of a
FUTURE time........a time when He will come again and gather all that
are TRULY His (Eph. 1:10, II Thess. 2:1, James 5:7)............
Does He meet us where we are at while we have sin??? Absolutely, but He
does not allow us to STAY in our sin if we belong to Him. He died that
we may be FREE from the bondage of sin.
Comment/question
The
Lord comes out of his place to punish …which means it is not His
place…Isa is speaking of it as… being out of his place...to punish.
Response
Ah, and concerning those who profess to know Him, but continue in
iniquity (lawlessness), He says He will cast them away (Matthew 7:21-24)
Comment/question
The
way you are presenting the word…this is called judging according to the
flesh…because there is witness that God does forgive the sin of
adultery.
Response
You misrepresent me, as usual. I DO believe there is forgiveness
available to those who commit adultery----whether it is "secret" sin or
"open" sin.............however, there is no indication in scripture that
one can rightly confess Christ AND continue to practice lawlessness.
Comment/question
For
example, the woman caught in adultery, the Lord forgave her and told her
to go sin no more. But, to someone else that may mean that He forgives
the adultery (the remarriage, so you call it) and you should have
learned from your mistake and not go out and commit adultery again.
Adultery is defined as sleeping with someone that is married or as you
say, remarrying if your former spouse is alive, correct? Well, if I
don't go out and sleep with someone whose married or if I'm married
and/or if I don't go out and divorce my current spouse (remarried one)
and marry someone else while they are alive, then I technically am not
committing that sin again, right?
Response
There is a BIG gap in our understanding of the nature of adultery. It
appears that you believe the adultery of a second marriage is just
the entrance into such a marriage?
The big difference in our views is that those who believe all FIRST
marriages are binding until death see the second marriage as null and
void---scripturally speaking---unlawful, because one is already joined
to another in the sight of God. The reason we see this is because one
can't commit adultery with a person AND be lawfully
married(remarriage) to that same person at the same time. The very
definition of adultery is that one is joining with SOMEONE ELSE'S
SPOUSE. When does the covenant spouse cease being the lawful
spouse in God's eyes----at death (
When Jesus says to "go and sin no more", He meant for her to stop
committing adultery----based upon her PRIOR acts/relationships that were
adulterous. What you are saying is that relationships Jesus deems as
adulterous, He now gives permission to enter back into those relations
as long as one has confessed their sin. The problem with this thought is
that confession NEVER changes the nature of a relationship. All
confession is doing is coming into agreement with God, that what He has
said is sin, is sin. If He says a "marriage" is adultery, then in TRUE
repentance, we also say such a "marriage" is adultery. When we walk out
that repentance (show forth "fruit" of that), we not only confess such a
relationship is sin, we then forsake that relationship.
We do not believe every situation should have a different outcome when
adultery is involved. To repent from adultery is to stop committing
adultery with whoever one is committing adultery with----whether it is
in forsaking an extra-marital relationship or a "legalized" unlawful
marriage in God's sight.
Comment/question
I
must admit, I've been lurking around this particular thread lately, and
have been greatly fascinated. I am not married, but I have been very
concerned about this fact, as I do intend to marry in the future and I
want my union to be pleasing in the eyes of the Lord.
I would like to say to (Name Deleted) lastblast (CindyW), that your
posts have been excellent, and have confirmed in scripture and Spirit
what I have been sensing from the Spirit all along.
.......................
..................I must say, about two years back I came to this
reality, that there are possible thousands and thousands of CHRISTIANS
living in adulterous relationships called second, third and fourth
marriages that I truly became afraid and I stopped posting on the
subject. But the Spirit of God kept urging me on, that this was true. I
remember reading in Revelations about a church that taught adultry. And
I was stumped that a church that named itself afte the living God would
encourage adultry. Then it occurred to me that all of these second,
third and fourth marriages were adulterous. ........
Response
Thank you for the nice words and also for sharing what the Lord has
shown you. I am seeing more and more just how many of us are coming to
the truth of the "ONE FLESH"............I praise God for that because I
know that as more and more of us come to this truth, generations after
us (should the Lord delay His coming), will benefit!
As I have stated before on this thread, my own family is racked with
divorce/remarriage (even among confessing Christians), so when I started
"seeing" what I now know to be truth, it was FRIGHTENING.........and did
cause me to draw back----for a time. However, as you are now feeling,
when the Lord shows you something of this great importance, there is a
reason..........and we have to walk it out, pleasant or not.
Comment/question
Pay
attention to the Scriptures that are often explained away, redefined or
given some alternate meanings foreign to the audience and that will tip
you off a little.
Response
There are at least 2 scriptures that are explained away in favor of
allowing remarriage. The remarriage is ok camp can not, has not, been
able to explain why it is that CHRISTIANS are permitted to remarry after
a separation (I Cor. 7:10-11)in spite of what the Word of God says to
the contary. Another passage which is poo-pooed is Rom. 7:2-3 which
clearly shows that the original marriage bond endures until
death----even in the face of a second marriage. We also see that Paul
calls a woman who marries while her husband is alive, an adulteress.
Some can say, "well Paul wasn't giving an in depth teaching on marriage
there, he was using an analogy of Christ/law". The problem is that
Paul's analogy was PERFECT. The other problem for the pro remarriage
camp is that they cannot explain why it is that Paul used an adulterous
woman in his analogy of lifelong marriage, if adultery/divorce/or
remarriage dissolved what God joined together.
Comment/question
For
the people who were asking "so, is it wrong for such and such a person
to marry again", based on what was the outcome of a prior marriage, I
would say this- Jesus said "Neither do I condemn thee go and sin no
more" as a direct quote to someone in Screipture. Remember that story?
Response
Jesus said, "Go and SIN NO MORE"..........what you are teaching is that
it is ok to go BACK into a sinful relationship. Again, NEVER has it been
proven by anyone on this thread, nor anyone I can find, that the
RELATIONSHIP Jesus calls adultery, somehow changes into a lawful
marriage upon confession (acknowledgment of one's sinful condition in
the Lord's sight). Confession NEVER changes the NATURE of a
relationship. Either the relationship is being lived out wrong, or it is
not. Adultery means one is joining themself with another they are NOT
free to be with.
Comment/question
Now, if a LEGALLY divorced man takes a new wife, no matter how tender
and faithful he is, he is tossed into the same sin bracket as a married
man who cheats on his wife.
Response
This is where some have issue. Who says the
man's first marriage is dissolved? The state who issues the divorce
decree, the person or person's married, or God? Does a "civil" divorce
dissolve what God has joined together? From Jesus' own words, it does
not appear to be so. Why are we changing HIS definition of a form of
adultery, saying these relationships ARE approved by God, when it
appears scripturally they are not. Why do we think that such men should
be put in leadership positions, when it appears God says "no". Whose
judgment are we resting upon----His or our own?
I personally see a huge problem in the confessing church today which has
led to where we are at presently. What we are doing is the same exact
thing that the Cor. church was doing----in our desire to appear "full of
grace" and "merciful" we are allowing sin in the camp........yet, is
this ok with the Lord? (I Cor. 5)
Comment/question
When a man commits adultery and divorces His wife, was God in control?
Could God have stopped the man? Is God not capable of answering the
wife's prayers for reconciliation? Why does it happen? Explain this from
Scripture please.
Response
There is God's perfect will and there is His permissive will. Many
children are molested and violently murdered. Is God in control in those
situations? Yes, He is, though why He allows such evil to continue is
beyond our comprehension. Does He allow a spouse to stray and become
guilty of adultery? Absolutely. He has given man free will and the right
to exercise that free will within the bounds of His permissive will.
Will
God answer a woman's prayers? Yes. Will He answer them in the timing and
way SHE wants? Perhaps no...........and therein lies the problem. If
something doesn't happen in our time frame, we think God has either
"released" us(because something hasn't happened in the time we expected
it to) or we get disheartened and believe He isn't listening. That is
where His Word is essential. We are told to walk by faith, not by sight.
We need to keep plugging along----no matter what we see or don't see, we
know the Lord IS listening and doing a work----in HIS time.
Comment/question
There is a false teaching prevalent today that spreads the lie that you
cannot marry again after divorce. Yet it is just a legalist lie born of
modern Pharisees and many have been swept into it. May God have mercy on
them
Response
See I Corinthians. 7:10-11, Matthew 5:32, Matthew. 19:9, Luke. 16:16-18,
Mark. 10:12
Comment/question
How does adultery turn into a lawful marriage? Marriage is already
lawful, but repentance is needed to restore your relationship to God IF
you are in adultery of any kind.
Response
Jesus called a marriage after a divorce, adultery. Adultery is NOT
lawful. Adultery means you are having unlawful relations with another
person's spouse. You cannot be "lawfully" married and committing
adultery at the same time.
Comment/question
How do you get out of that adultery? It depends on the adultery, but in
all you repent of your sins to God and restore your relationship to God.
Response
How does one get out of adultery? They forsake the adulterous
relationship. There is no other way and there is no NT scripture that
teaches adultery "changes" into a lawful marriage, joined as "one flesh"
by God. The true fruit of repentance of any sin is the forsaking of that
sin............not confession and staying in a relationship Jesus calls
adultery.
Comment/question
If you divorced previously and are now married again, you remain
married. THAT is what is required of the consequences. You stay and
stick it out. You do the right thing and be faithful to your spouse, be
a godly spouse, and never attempt to go back to the former spouse.
Because if you do go back to them then that action IS adultery.
Response
How would forsaking adultery and being reconciled with one's lawful
spouse, be adultery? It is forsaking sin to return to, if possible, the
"one flesh" God joined-----the "one flesh" Paul teaches will not be
separated until death (