General Questions & Comments

Comment/question
I was just wondering ... do you ensure that you wear a headcovering in church? Do you always remain silent in church, or do you sometimes take part in the service, even if in some small way? Paul advocated both these things very strongly, but they are pretty much discarded in Western society. If you interpret Paul's words so very legalistically in regard to marriage, I would hope you would do the same regarding these other things.

I feel somewhat saddened that you are still ignoring the fact that God DOES bless remarriage and DOES help people move on.

Interestingly, in thinking about God's covenant with Israel, He kept His side of the covenant, but Israel did not. God refers to giving Israel a certificate of divorce. Then He talks about forgiving her and taking her back. However, He resolved it completely by making a NEW covenant - that of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, and placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

Sometimes God allows people to make new covenants, as the old ones are no longer standing. Sadly, some folks are obviously not prepared to accept this, in spite of many people explaining the Scriptures in just as valid a way as theirs, and in spite of testimonies of God's love, renewal and restoration going on all around them. It really is sad.
Response
I say this not in an angry or frustrated way, but in sadness. To me, it is quite sad that people do not follow God's Word on what HE determines to be lawful and unlawful. We hear people who profess to be Christians say such things as this: "I know many people will disagree with me, but I "feel"".............."I don't "think" God wants any of us to be alone the rest of our lives"..................."surely God wouldn't expect me/her/us, etc........."

Where is the Lord's Word? I see concerning this particular subject a flat out rejection of Paul's teachings............and a flat out rejection of Jesus' labeling of another marriage while one has a living spouse as ADULTERY. Instead, what I see are many, many arguments as to why we can go ahead and disobey and not remain "unmarried" and how God will and DOES bless those who commit adultery. None of this has any scriptural backing. There is no scriptural backing to state that our current divorce/remarriage practices are ok because of our changing "customs"............ I don't recall the Lord or Paul saying that women who do not wear head coverings will not inherit the kingdom of God, so I'm not quite sure why you are holding this practice/lack of practice on par with adultery----which the Lord has MUCH to say on in the New Testament.

I'm not against discussing head coverings or Western prosperity, but it seems to me that some of these other issues are brought into this conversation to minimize the sin of adultery somehow.......or excuse it away. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Comment/question
I used to be on the side of the fence with the no divorce, no remarriage crowd. It seemed so black and white. But over the years what I thought I understood and what I saw in reality were not adding up so I knew I must have missed the truth somewhere.
Response
If what you saw in the Word of God was so black and white, what in God's Word changed your mind...........or did relationship change your mind----meaning you saw what looked like "blessed" relationships even though the Word of God called them adultery?

Comment/question
"Till death do you part." I assure you while my spouse was certainly not dead, the relationship died a long time ago.
Response
No relationship is truly "dead" unless one of the spouses is dead. The Lord is ABLE to revive anything that "looks" dead. The Word of God states that a woman is bound to her husband by law until death (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). I would encourage you to pray for your spouse and your marriage and don't give up by entering into an adulterous marriage. You may be very sorry later down the road and then faced with the terrible decisions some brothers and sisters have had to make when the Lord convicts them of their adultery by His Word.

Comment/question
Are you anti-remarriage folk denying that God is blessing remarriages around the world?
Response
I have said this before and I truly believe it..........the Lord deals with each of us according to HIS timing. Because we "appear" to be blessed doesn't mean we don't have sin in our lives which needs to be addressed/dealt with. It just means that God up to this point, has chosen to deal with other areas first.

Comment/question
I was being obedient to God in not divorcing....my former spouse said that "God told me to divorce you" which is not what His Word says....
Am I to be held in bondage to her "sin" ???
Response
Are you asking if it's ok to disobey God because your wife did? I don't believe scripture allows for such a thing. Just because a wife "departs", that doesn't mean her husband is free to move on. In Rom. 7:2-3 we see that even if a wife DOES depart and marry another, the bond is still intact with her first husband----her adultery does not dissolve that bond---his(the first husband's) DEATH does.

Comment/question
This is why God is able to bless a remarriage that is formed in Christ - and He does.
Response
But, IS a remarriage Jesus Himself called adultery, "formed in Christ"?

Comment/question
I have yet to hear a satisfying argument as to how these words of Jesus and their general implications for how we look at scriptural mandates can be reconciled with the views of those who would place strict limits, without consideration of extenuating circumstances, on remarriage.
Response
The problem I see with many of these type statements is that they presume that MAN is placing limits. Not true. God in His Word has placed limits on MAN. Some of us believe those "limits" pertain to us and should be honored, lest we enter into and remain in sin-----in the sight of GOD. It truly doesn't matter what man has said. It only matters what God says.

In NT teachings on divorce/remarriage, the Lord Jesus has spoken of the indissolvable bond of marriage and the state of adultery one will be in should they cleave to another besides whom He joined them to. Paul reaffirms Jesus' teachings on the matter, teaching in Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39 and I Cor. 7:10-12 that only death will dissolve this bond---not adultery by remarriage, not "extra-marital" adultery, not a divorce, and not desertion. Those of us who believe it is God who determines who is lawfully "joined by Him" and who are committing adultery, are relying on God's Word for guidance, not "personal, private interpretations".

Comment/question
Instead, I suggest that the Matthew 12 material (e.g. the first 14 verses) delivers a devastating blow to any position that claims that even God places "hard and fast" rules in regard to anything. I realize this is probably a very unconventional position, but that does not make it wrong.
Response
Yes, I do believe you are wrong because Jesus DID say that to marry another after a divorce is adultery. He did not mince words. We can try to muddy His Words, but they stand and His judgments are all that should matter to those who profess to follow Him. Paul's teachings to BELIEVERS about not being deceived---- that those who practice such (adultery, fornication, murder, lying, etc) would not inherit the kingdom of God, but have their part in the lake of fire-----need to be considered by those who would try to make light of Jesus' judgments on sin and the need for repentance.

Obviously, in the early church they were walking under the same false assumptions as some do today----that they can continue to serve the flesh and God too. Paul told them not to be deceived. We, in the modern church, who seem to be thinking along the same lines (we can serve flesh and God at the same time), need to heed Paul's words as well.

Comment/question
The argument seems rather clear to me and anything I might say in defence of it would probably be a repeat of what I have already said. I know what Jesus says about divorce and remarriage, just like I know what God says in the OT about work on the Sabbath. I would challenge anyone to argue that the content of Matt 12 (v1 to v14) does not clearly teach that even God's "rules" are imperfect and sometimes need to be violated in order to fulfill God's higher purposes.
Response
And I would say that you are treading on very dangerous ground and I would not want to be in your position on THAT DAY----being one who is leading others to believe that God is not to be obeyed in the things we do not wish to obey Him in........... the sins we are called to repent from, we don't really have to repent from  Sorry, I don't find that biblical in any sense.

Comment/question
Why can’t we all stop getting hung up on the divorce/remarriage issue, and start getting involved with making a difference in the quality of the pre or post martial relationships stuff! LOL We can talk about divorce/remarriage until the cows come home! LOL it won’t make a difference!
Response
Many of us can't "stop getting hung up on the MDR issue" because the Lord says it is ADULTERY and many within the professing church are committing adultery and don't even KNOW IT!! Why? Because it is not preached in the pulpits today as it was in times gone by. People need to stand up and show forth what GOD SAYS on the matter. When people know the seriousness of marriage in God's sight-----their foundation will change. If they know BEFORE they commit adultery, that that's what they are thinking to do (divorce/get remarried), it WILL change their minds/hearts----if they truly DO love the Lord.

It's much better to accept one's situation and then work on it, knowing you have no other choices----than it is to walk blindly into sin, believing it ok with the Lord and finding out later you were wrong. I grieve at so many just following the lead of others right into sin, not knowing any better. At least if this is talked about, NO ONE will be able to stand before the Lord on that day and say "I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS COMMITTING ADULTERY"

Comment/question
So what you are saying is it is better to talk about how divorce is sin - and not talk about the issues of why divorce happens to begin with?

To me it would seem like those two would go hand in hand. Don't speak against the treachery that happens within marriage - just remind them that you can't divorce over it? The definition of adultery is much better than dealing with the act?!

I don't buy that AT ALL! If you are dealing with the treachery of marraige that some lay down - I bet they can figure out for themselves that is wrong! You want to throw in your bible verses about remarriage is adultery - fine! You can't stop there though! That isn't addressing the root issue at all! Address the root issue, and maybe you will have more people listening to the other part a lot better!

I read TONS of people, preachers, etc saying GOD HATES DIVORCE - but what I don't see is them dealing with why it may happen to being with. You can't address one and forget about the other and think it is going to work out okay. It may work for some - but its the other ones you need to have hear! Constantly repeating your verses ain't working - why not try a different angle?
Response
How many preachers actually QUOTE scripture(line upon line---not just Mal. 2) on divorce/remarriage? I can tell you---- not very many. On the other hand, they WILL quote the scriptures on how to be a Godly husband/wife (many times these scriptures are mixed in with a whole lot of secular psychology---in my opinion). There are marriage seminars galore on how to treat one's spouse. So getting information/scripture to the people of God is NOT the problem. The teachings of submission and love are there in the church, yet they are not being heeded. THAT is the problem.

And because of this mindset, we are where we are today: as in the OT, people think they CAN divorce---then remarry with the approval of God(albeit after confessing their sins), yet they are ignorant concerning the words of Jesus and Paul on the matter of divorce/remarriage. Many will even say, "What? to remarry is to commit adultery? I never heard that before!"...........or someone will argue about Jesus' meaning, trying to spiritualize away His assessment of this sin......."I know Jesus said "adultery", but surely He didn't really mean it. Maybe the "act" of marriage was adultery, but somehow by God's grace it turns into a lawful relationship"...........yet that position is completely without biblical support.

I think you are very wrong in your belief that we should not talk about remarriage=adultery. It is very necessary, since the problem of adultery is very much a problem in the professing church of Christ.

Comment/question
I agree that if one truly repents then God forgives them...BUT to repent means to stop doing the sin. So for an adulterer to repent of adultery they have to confess and FORSAKE the adultery.

How does a person repent of a homosexual lifestyle?

How does a person repent of being a thief?

They have to confess it and stop doing it.

And if Jesus says remarriage is adultery, then how does one repent of remarriage???
Response
Yes, exactly! I think many today have a skewed idea of what the "fruit" of repentance is.

I spoke to a woman last week on the phone who is in a remarriage. Through long, hard, study she was convinced that her WHOLE relationship (2nd marriage)was sin in God's sight---even though everyone was telling her she was not in sin. Since they could not show her scripturally that her adultery had turned "lawful", she remained unconvinced by their persuasions.

When she was convinced herself of the scriptures, she called her first husband to ask his forgiveness for what she had done to their marriage and for the adultery she was presently in. She then moved out of the bedroom of her 2nd husband.........and most recently she took the step to move from the home. This is true repentance. She sees her relationship as the Lord does. She did not merely say she was "sorry" for committing adultery against her 1st husband and then continue in the adulterous relationship with her 2nd husband.

Comment/question
It is clearly stated that when an adulterer is present in the marriage then you have the option to leave. What does that mean? That means that you may not only choose to forgive, but you may choose to annul that marriage.
Response
As I said before, this idea is what I have issue with----if one CHOOSES to forgive? Do we have a "choice" to forgive or not to forgive? Sorry, but "moving on" to someone new is walking in unforgiveness and outwardly stating that one WILL NOT forgive and be reconciled to the one God joined them with. However, some believe that others CAN choose to forgive and to either accept back a repentant spouse or to "stand" praying, no matter the length of time for a spouse who is wayward. Which choice seems to align with the very heart of Jesus? It seems clear to me.

Comment/question
Let me draw your attention to the specific references within the text, to those places where scripture is refuted, and the authority of the Roman Church placed above the word of God.
Response
For me, I don't care too much for the RC Church. There are many things within it that make me cringe. However, on the topic of divorce/remarriage, though this document was put together in the 1600's, it very much aligns with what the church practiced in the first and second centuries---way before Constantine and "Popes" came into being.

I do not see in regards to the indissolubility of marriage where they are scripturally "off" in that document. They allow for separation (I Cor. 7:10-11), yet they hold fast to the permanency of the marriage bond til death (I Cor. 7:39, Rom. 7:2-3), denying that adultery does away with that marriage bond. If you read the Shepherd of Hermas' writings, you will find that the "innocent" would be charged with adultery should they remarry. There is very much a consistency in the earliest writings on divorce/remarriage all the way down the line until the reformation, when marriage/divorce practices started changing.

I believe, in trying to repudiate the false teachings found within the RC Church, the reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater. Many of the reformers could not even agree with each other on what dissolved a marriage and who was able to remarry, so practices in the reformed churches were not consistent. We are now seeing the end result of their inconsistencies. Today, some churches believe remarriage is ok---that a divorce(no matter the reason) dissolves the first union. Some churches believe that adultery dissolves a marriage union. Some churches teach that it is adultery to remarry, but the remarriage nullifies the previous marriage. Some churches teach that the remarriage is adultery until confession is made, then it becomes a lawful marriage in God's sight. Confusion..........that's all I see in the present day's church on this issue.

The thing that grieves me beyond measure is that there are people who have entered into 2nd marriages who ARE convicted they are living in a state of perpetual adultery since they have a spouse who is still living. Many a pastor has tried to brush away those convictions.......and the people in such cases remain in torment----because of what they see in the Word of God. Those pastors cannot explain why repentance is lived out in one way concerning some illicit relationships(forsaking the sin), yet concerning this sin why they are counselling in opposition to this(to remain in that illicit relationship).

There is one teacher in particular, John Piper, whom I just love. I think he is grounded in many areas of doctrine. He, in the 80's, came to the conclusion that the marriage bond remains intact until death---no matter what. He will not marry divorced persons under any circumstance(though other pastors in his church will). He believes that the "exception" clause does not pertain to adultery within the marriage and gives allowance for divorce/remarriage. Yet, though he believes neither adultery nor divorce can dissolve the marriage bond, he will counsel those in 2nd marriages(adultery) to remain together.......even though he sees the relationship as adultery. Somehow God's grace covers "this" sin. Though I am glad to see that he has been given eyes to see the permanency of marriage, I am sad to see that his practices are contradictory. Either a marriage bond is til death or it is not. He says it is, yet allows for remarriages to continue. Again, confusion

Comment/question
Slowly, it is dawning on me, that you are willing to take the word of men, over the word of the Lord, whereas experience has shown many times, that He IS the Word and His word really does break open mysteries.
Response
I supposed it is much easier to believe that a man taught me what I now believe than to believe God just may have shown it to me as I sought Him in His Word.

Truly, it is the Word which I rely upon above all.........that is why, I believe, my views are at odds with many in the modern day Western Church. They elevate feelings and experiences over what the Word of God speaks. If someone asks a question, many will point to so and so's book on the topic because they don't know how to answer. Instead of saying "thus saith the Lord".......they say "surely the Lord wouldn't........." based upon what they or someone they love is going through. The truth is that the church is filled today with humanistic teachings. "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" sermon deals with humanism in the church and I'm afraid that this mindset towards self surely has infiltrated the church in regards to marital practices----the evidence of this is plain to see in all the divorces and remarriages and all the justifications for such.

Confusion on what God says in His Word and the infiltration of humanism in the church is why there is such diverse, confused teachings on divorce/remarriage within the confessing Body of Christ. Do you believe all the varying camps on the MDR issue are following the Word of the Lord? If so, how can that be? Could it be possible that the confusion is a result of men listening to "men" telling them what the Word of God means? I personally think that is the case since I have had men's teachings pushed at me from pastors who could not answer my questions or the questions of my husband. I don't mind sharing good reading materials with others, but I won't push something as truth unless I can firmly discuss it from the Word of God myself.

Comment/question
I've been musing on your last question to me, and I've come up with one of my own, which may help me to understand something more about the reason you take the stance you do.
Response
I don't know why you won't accept my words. Why I take the stance I do is because of what I see in God's Word. NONE of my beliefs are based upon emotional reasonings or indoctrinations of man-----or over spiritualizing some passage taken completely out of context. I DID believe one could remarry once upon a time----BEFORE I studied this out for myself.

As for betrothal being what Jesus speaks of, as I said, I don't grab hold of that view 100% as truth. However, it is something that cannot be discounted as we have a SCRIPTURAL precedent of this occurring(Mt. 1:18-24). It's not something I made up to boost my point of view. It is there for all to see and weigh it's meaning in the larger scope of this issue.

Personally, I don't know how anyone who truly desires to seek the truth on this matter can discount, without even a second thought, that this very well could be what Jesus was speaking about, since we find this "exception" ONLY in the Gospel of Matthew---a gospel aimed at JEWS who practiced the betrothal custom.

I also don't know how anyone in good conscience can discard the possibility that "porneia" can very well be speaking of UNLAWFUL unions----unions that God DID NOT join together. That, in my opinion, is the only type of marital union that truly can be put away and there be NO hardheartedness, as it is an act of obedience to the Lord and the forsaking of a sinful relationship NOT joined by God (adulterous, homosexual, incestual).

In any case, getting back to the betrothal custom, in the other two gospels, aimed at Gentile audiences, they had no such betrothal custom, only marriage. There we find NO exception made. The sin of adultery is charged to ANYONE who joins himself/herself with another unlawfully or takes another's spouse after a divorce has occurred. This teaching is NOT found in the Mosaic law. A divorce gave permission for the parties to marry another(Deut.24:1-4). Jesus changed that to say that now a divorce did not give right to marry again, but whosoever did so would be committing adultery in His sight.

The other thing which SHOULD make one pause and consider is what I speak of all the time---WHY, if adultery gave means to a dissolvement of marriage as some suppose the Mt. 19:9 passage means----WHY did Paul use the example of an adulterous woman (remarried) in regards to the permanency of the marriage bond (death is what severs the bond and frees one to remarry). No mention of divorce on the part of the innocent party.

If, as some contend, Paul is speaking of OT Mosaic law, why use the same wording when speaking to ANOTHER Christian group (I Cor. 7:39). If Paul is speaking of Mosaic law, it was NOT adultery to remarry after a divorce. I believe it is because the "law" Paul is speaking of is NOT the Mosaic law, it is God's law of marriage, which Jesus speaks of in His discourse---bringing marriage back to the created intent for marriage. THAT is the standard the Lord holds us to. That is why He speaks of joining oneself with another as adultery---because that person does not belong to the one who took them---until their rightful spouse dies as Paul teaches.

No hardheartedness is permitted---at all, that is why for a Christian, there is NO option to forgive. We MUST forgive or we will not be forgiven. When I hear a Christian say that we have an option in this regard, I cannot understand that mindset. What they are saying is that there IS a difference between the one who DOES forgive and either is reconciled or "stands" for the wayward spouse and the person who will NOT accept back a wayward spouse. Does the Lord look on each in an equal manner? For me, it always comes back to "how would Jesus handle such a situation?".......and there, I find my answer to what is right in His sight.

Comment/question
(Name Deleted) had it right when he said the faithful spouse could 'walk away forgivingly'.
Response
I disagree. As I asked, what is the difference TO THE LORD in one who "walks away" never turning back and the one who "remains unmarried", desiring their wayward spouse to repent and remaining faithful to the Lord and spouse---even if the spouse never repents? Is one right/one wrong---both right? What scriptures would you give to justify either position?

Comment/question
Not only has God done this for us in Christ, knowing that only a few will be reconciled to Him,
Response
Here is what the Lord states concerning those who have yet to repent:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (II Pet. 3:9).
and:
I Cor. 13........love .........suffers long, does not seek its own, bears all things, believes all things, hopes for all things, endures all things..........Love NEVER fails.

Marriage is compared to Christ and the Church. Do you not think that we are to conduct ourselves towards one another(husbands/wives) as Christ does to His Body? Until the day comes when death embraces a person or His Second Advent comes, a person STILL has a chance at "life" and reconciliation with Jesus. Why should we not be of the same mind towards the one God joins us to?
Comment/question
Forgiving someone and staying with them are two different things Sister.
Response
Who said that one had to "stay" with someone who is unrepentant? Paul addressed that (I Cor.7:10-11). However, if someone IS repentant and wants their marriage restored, yet the other will NOT restore, how is that forgiveness? When someone "moves on" the door to reconciliation of that relationship has been slammed shut. What picture does that send to our children on the nature of God's love towards us? Not a very good one in my opinion........

If we are to bring in other types of relationships, we must acknowledge that there is no other relationship like a marriage---none. It is so different and special that it is used as a Picture of Christ and the Church(His Body). When one of us sins against Him, even spiritual adultery----does He cast us out never to be reconciled to us again or, does He desire that we repent and our relationship restored? I think we'll both agree on the answer to that one. Are we different in how we are to respond then?

Comment/question
Your question as I see it is how can I say someone truly repents and then is okay to go back into a relationship that is sinful?

There are many layers of issues to deal with here.
Response
I see that you believe that if one repents of adultery, that it is all well and fine, but that adultery and/or divorce dissolves the marriage (covenant/first) marriage. What do you make of Hosea and Gomer? She committed adultery, yet their marriage was NOT dissolved in the eyes of God. He waited for her. Also, we see Paul preaching in Rom. 7:2-3 that neither a woman's adultery, nor remarriage dissolves her covenant marriage, but that only her husband's death will do so (No mention of a divorce by Paul as having the power to dissolve what God joined together).

Also, we see in the case of Herod/Herodias that neither her adultery/remarriage nor her divorce from Philip seemed to dissolve her marriage to Philip. John told Herod that he had Philip's wife. So, in the case of Herodias, would it not appear that her repentance from adultery would mean forsaking her present "marriage" that was unlawful and that she should return to her lawful husband, or remain "unmarried" if he was unwilling to reconcile?

Comment/question
I don't believe the Lord would want her at that point to go on as a young woman in her twenties with a sexual drive and be single and to be constantly pulled by the world and her natural sex drive to have sex with men once in a while when she hits low points. Rather she should find herself a good Christian man and get married.
Response
So it is your belief that "flesh" reigns over what Paul taught (FROM THE LORD)-----that "if a woman does depart, she is to remain unmarried or reconciled with her husband." What if the husband has "moved on" and he refuses to reconcile........or if he has not moved on, but still refuses to reconcile? Is it still your belief that because a woman has sexual desires it is ok to disobey the Lord in "remaining unmarried"?

Comment/question
Repentance does normally entail a turning away from the sin and doing the right thing. In some cases it is impossible to try to reconcile with your former spouse.
Response
Why is it impossible? If someone is in sin (adultery) and the Lord did not recognize a divorce as dissolving the marriage, and His Will is for a covenant husband and wife to reflect the relationship of Jesus and the Church, how is that impossible? Are not ALL things possible to those who love God? If Gomer's heart and lifestyle can change and Hosea and Gomer's relationship reflect that of Jesus and the Church, how can that pattern NOT be repeated with those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Comment/question
Remember the Lord looks on the heart not on simply on actions. If the heart is right before him He knows that and that is what counts.
Response
You are right. We can DO the right things(based upon the Word of God) for the wrong reasons, or we can do what appears "right" for the wrong reasons(not based upon the Word of God). The second is very dangerous ground for the Christian. I see on this forum MUCH "doing what is right in one's own sight" and not based upon what the Lord has said. WAY too much reasoning and not enough self-sacrifice and obedience to the Lord during the trials of life------where the power of God WILL be manifested in the lives of those who faithfully rely upon the Lord and do not follow their own reasonings and ill counsel of others----which in the end, brings destruction to the ONE flesh that GOD (not man) brought together----for HIS purposes.

Comment/question
However the person may not be able to do "the right thing" ... lilfe may make it impossibe ... however God knows the heart and knows that if they could, they would.
Response
So you don't believe that the Holy Spirit gives people the power to OVERCOME? Now, I completely understand the position of the unbeliever or confessed believer who really hasn't been born again----they can't help but to sin. However, those who truly ARE born again, have the power to not sin/turn away from present sinful relationships and remain faithful to their covenant mate and God, who also is involved in the covenant marriage.

Comment/question
Lets say a woman divorces her husband because she has found a new and better lover or some other wrong reason.

She obtains the divorce and remarries this new and better man.

Ten years go by and the Lord has been working in her heart and finally she sees where she was wrong and confesses it to the Lord and her heart is broken for what she did so many years ago.

In the meantime her new husband and her have had four children together.
Response
Let's say the woman took another woman's husband and the first wife has been standing for her husband to repent from his adultery? Who is the man's wife in the Lord's eyes and who is not? Is a marriage lawful based upon what we want or is it lawful based upon what God says?

Comment/question
Life may take us down some roads that make it impossible to actually go back to our first spouse even if we are truly repentant.
Response
Then we have the Lord's admonishment is such cases: Remain unmarried. (I Cor. 7:10-11). There was no other course of action offered. A covenant marriage is lifelong.

Comment/question
Is divorce the ONLY option? No! In fact the Bible is clear from cover to cover that the heart of true believer is to forgive and restore. Forgiveness is never an option, however restoration in the case of sexual sin is.
Response
Again, I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are given an "option" to reconcile with our One Flesh (the one God joins us to).

Comment/question
I'm through.

Clearly you have you mind made up, so be it.

Your belief is in the minority and there are those who have far more knowledge on the Bible then you and I who say you are wrong.
Response
(Name Deleted), I am more than willing to have scriptures shared with me on this topic. What I can't embrace are people's "opinions" on what God thinks. I think Jesus has spoken clearly that divorce does not dissolve the marriage bond(hence adultery takes place with a new marriage)...........and I have provided the scriptural reasons why I believe as I do.

I hope you do not place your faith in the "majority", because throughout scripture, the majority has ALWAYS been opposed to the Lord's ways. The minority consisted of prophets who spoke against the wicked ways of Israel.........that minority was "killed" for speaking God's Word to those who chose to walk in opposition to Him. We also have Jesus' words that NARROW is the way of life and FEW are those who find it, but BROAD is the way of destruction and many walk that road. Jesus also said that on the day of judgment "MANY" would come and say "Lord, Lord".........but He would say to them, "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you".........

Can people be in the minority and be wrong? Absolutely. However, if one is in the minority with the Word of God at its side, and the majority is at ODDS with God's Word, I'd rather be in the minority...........and I hope you would be as well.

Comment/question
No matter the reason of a divorce, if you find your heart repenting (very important) of ANY sin, that is the way to forgiveness in His Grace.
Response
I think the point of many of us is that "yes" one CAN repent of a unbiblical divorce----yet what one CAN'T do is erase the marriage that still exists in spite of the divorce. What has been shown numerous times, giving numerous scriptures as biblical support is that marriage not only is INTENDED for life, but IS for life. The only "marriages" that are NOT for life and CAN be repented of are those that are not lawful in the sight of God----adulterous remarriages, incestuous marriages, homosexual marriages, etc.

Comment/question
I would not divorce my wife based on your interpretations.....
Response
Nor should we ever do ANYTHING based upon someone else's interpretation (famous, well-reknowned, or obscure). We need to seek God with a heart truly desiring to know the truth. Whatever we do or don't do according to what we know to be Truth, we will held accountable for, on that day.

Comment/question
In a marriage If the evil is not purged, either by sanctification of the unbeliever by the believer so that “they might be saved” and the wife or the husband does did cry out but were in agreement thereof, then the marriage is dead. = the doorway of her father's house (judgement seat)

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day
Response
You are right, there will be a great SEPARATION, but it is not a divorce as likened to marriage, for in marriage those who are married KNOW each other. In that day (the day of Judgment), Jesus professes to NEVER know them, though they professed to know Him.

Your interpretation of scripture is greatly flawed in relation to the divorce/remarriage practice I believe. You are using scriptures which are completely unrelated to the topic at hand to justify disobedience to what the Lord has CLEARLY declared on the matter. "private" interpretations of scripture are clearly spoken against and that is what you are doing with God's Word on this issue of divorce/remarriage.

Comment/question
Adultery cannot be both the sin and the justification for not being in sin at the same time. In other words, if divorce and remarriage is adultery, and adultery is the justification for divorce and remarriage, then any divorce and remarriage automatically becomes legal. It is obvious that Jesus Christ would not make such an error in reasoning.
Response
Absolutely correct..........and the woman of Rom. 7:2-3 WOULDN'T be called an adulteress (she would be called a lawful wife of the 2nd husband).

Comment/question
Remarriage is a new contract or covenant and is not adultery once sincerely confessed and repented of.
Response
What if one does not "sincerely" acknowledge they committed adultery when they joined with someone who is NOT their spouse? Are they still adulterers? When exactly does one punch through the "sin gauntlet" and a sinful relationship then become a non-sinful relationship? Also, how does one whom the Lord says is "not your spouse"---the definition of adultery----then become your spouse? It sure doesn't appear in Rom. 7:2-3 that the second man Paul speaks of is the lawful husband-----Paul says the first one is----until he dies.

Comment/question
Both parties share some amount of blame for the disintegration of the marriage. So before I get beat over the head about that, it should be perfectly clear that even though both share some blame, one is the primary cause of troubles while the other is a secondary cause. For example, a cheating spouse having inappropriate relations outside the marriage is a chief cause and the primary one causing the dissolution while the other spouse who has not given 100%, but probably 90+% is a secondary cause. Enough said.

So then the one who is a chief cause is the one who acted treacherously and therefore the one who is the target of the condemnations of divorce. The primary offender is the one who has the hard heart that leads to the dissolution.
Response
Let's see........there is sin on both parts of the marriage partners.......there is a scale......one person's sins are weightier than the others (according to outward appearance, anyways).........God then says, "ok, good enough. Her/His sins are worse, you are allowed your walking papers AND not only that, but you can replace her/him with a "better", less sinful model.........and if that person you next marry end up with sins on scale WORSE than yours, you may again, replace her/him with another model better than the last".....

Is that how it works........according to scripture? The fruit of your "reasonings" are that over 70% of second marriages fail and over 90% of third marriages fail........The fruit reveals that for most, joining with anyone other than one's covenant spouse will lead to MORE unhappiness and brokenness---------not only with the couples involved, but with the children, in-laws, extended family, etc. The forsaking of one's original marriage vows affect MANY other people negatively.........forcing others to accept relationships they do not want to accept. If offenses abound on the part of the ones who have forsaken their marriage vows and have joined with another, family ties are broken or strained at the very least. Is this God's best, ----for people to join themselves with other's wives/children/in-laws/grandparents, etc and to suffer the turmoil that brings?

I stand on what I said earlier: "It all comes back to---- how does Jesus love?.........if we say we have Him in us and we do not "love" as He loves, then we are not walking by the Spirit, but are setting our minds on the things of the flesh"........

Hence all the "reasons" why one will continue to say they were justified in moving on and replacing the one God joined them to.

Comment/question
That is why God does not hold the divorce against the repentant sinner who was the victim of the divorce. Would you hold the other person's sin against them? Just curious.

It is God's best to offer mercy. It is God's best to offer hope. It is man's foolishness to live by works of the flesh.
Response
No, I would not hold the other person's sin against them...........but I would tell them that THEIR sin (past tense) is a cause of the divorce........Just because one finally sees the error of their ways, comes to the Lord and repents, does not mean their partner in life is on the same page at the same time. They are not the "innocent" one as you seem to think. The LORD worked repentance in them. The "innocent" spouse you speak of is unwilling to allow the time for the LORD to work repentance in their spouse, but instead desires to replace the one God joined them to.

I've seen people frustrated because they have come to a true repentance for past sins and they have changed their conduct towards their mate, children, friends, etc......but the offended party is not yet READY to let go of the hurt. They are still lashing back at the repentant one, maybe even "getting back" at the one who hurt them (spending family money foolishly, adultery, neglecting the home, etc). Do you believe it to be the Lord's will that the repentant one then forsake the still unrepentant one? Or do you think it is the Lord's will for the repentant one who received the heart to repent of their sins FROM THE LORD to extend that same mercy to the unrepentant one..........proving they REALLY ARE repentant and REALLY DO LOVE them?

Just a question: if I was a contentious, nasty wife........always yelling, belittling my husband and then he left me because he got tired of my lack of repentance----even though I stuck it out with him in spite of infidelity on his part earlier in the marriage........would that be ok on his part to depart and get a new wife---because I haven't yet repented of my ungodly/unloving conduct towards him? What if my conduct stemmed from FROM HIS SIN AGAINST ME?

Point: just because the Lord forgives does not mean that the ramifications of our sins are done away with. Many times we must make amends----proving our sincerity----not demanding because the Lord forgave us that others must forgive us as well. I think even having such an attitude begs the question on whether our repentance is truly genuine to begin with........did our sin REALLY break us? just a thought.

Comment/question
There are those that break God's commands and cause the divorce, and there are those left behind to pick up the pieces.
Response
That's a common thought, but one racked with error. If a man has not loved his wife as God commanded, HE can be the one responsible for the divorce. HE sinned in the sight of God, which caused his wife to sin (God does hold the husband MORE responsible in regards to a wife sinning). A husband's role is SO important towards his covenant wife that God likens it to Christ and the Church. The thing is that many husbands will throw away their "dirty" wives, instead of fulfilling their Godly role and "washing" them and loving them as he loves his own body and would never throw that out due to dirtiness. (Eph. 5).

Concerning a wife in the treatment of her covenant husband---did she honor/reverence her husband? If not, she sowed things in the marriage which brought about the divorce..........very, very, very few have lived PERFECTLY in a marriage and are not somehow/someway in small or large part, responsible for a divorce. As I've said, there are most certainly those who have been "left to pick up the pieces" due to their own large part in causing one to FEEL they HAD to flee........

I still see you using a "scale", .........and I know God does not use one. He does not judge as man does. If one is not 100% innocent, then they are guilty before God.

Comment/question
However in a root cause analysis, one is responsible for the tumble down the slippery slope to divorce and the other may not be.

If one spouse has purposed in their heart to hang in there until the dissolution is complete, i.e. the divorce, they remain innocent of the sin of divorce. So hence, there is no scale, either one or both are guilty of crossing the line to divorce. And if one spouse is not guilty of that sin, they are hence innocent. Do you still not understand this?
Response
No, I don't understand it........what I see is that many people today want to lay all the blame on the one who does the divorcing-----when many times the one divorcing felt COMPELLED to divorce due to things that occurred in the marriage. You seem to place the greatest guilt on the departing one for some reason.... Does the Lord? Do you not think that the Lord will hold accountable a husband who has hurt his wife, possibly causing her to stumble and sin........ You also suppose that it's ok for the one left as long as they "hang in there" until the divorce is complete........Do you not see that just "waiting til the ink dries" before moving on is another form of hardheartedness/unforgiveness----the same sin that led to a divorce in the first place?

Comment/question
If the separation does not repair the marriage, then what? If the ex-spouse does not meet their familial or financial obligations, then what? If the ex-spouse uses the separation to cause further harm to the family, then what?
Response
If a separation does not "repair" the marriage, then we continue to follow the Lord----remain unmarried OR be reconciled as He commanded.

If the spouse does not meet the family financial obligations? Is that a reason for one to get remarried---to take another man's wife or wife's husband to help provide for your family? Is it a good thing in the Lord's sight to possibly block the path for restoration of the original couple by getting oneself involve and taking that wayward person's family to themselves as their own family? Can you find this anywhere in scripture?

Comment/question
I cannot even begin to express how much this thread troubles me. To try and apply scripture irregardless of the life circumstances of a person is crazy.
Response
To me, to have the mindset to rebel against what the Lord has commanded due to one's circumstances is extremely troubling..........Jesus clearly states that "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father". Obedience to Him is not "law keeping".......it is evidence that we love Him. If we wont' obey (because we don't like what He says), we need to question our allegiance to Him for He says, "whosever loves me, obeys me". Our obedience even in those hard things shows that we trust Him above what we "see" in our life's circumstances.

Comment/question
Satan was at the Alter at my wedding,
And as far as the depths are concerned I believe he was having a very difficult time trying to get out from under my feet.

This was offered in the previous post
God is God and can separate whom he wishes when he wishes and most likely is “allowing” the failures in a marriage so the divorce will happen.
Response
What a very sad mindset to hold--------that God is allowing the failures in a marriage so divorce will happen.........Failures in a marriage happen due to SIN!!!! The Lord never wants a divorce to occur in a covenant marriage! See Mal. 2. The enemy of our souls however, is joyful when divorce happens. He is NOT at altar when we marry-----but the Lord IS and the Lord joins the two as One........

However, the enemy is always trying to cause the "flesh" to rise up so that what God joined together is destroyed and many times replaced with what Satan put together (a perversion of God's marriage). The thing is that neither we, nor the enemy can UNDO what God has done, no matter what we believe to the contrary.

Comment/question
I have been reading along and studying this subject, again, to see if I missed anything.

That is a fascinating interpretation of scripture you have there. Do you have any verses to back it up?

And one more question: When two people are in an invalid marriage how do they get out of it without getting a divorce?
Response
Sure, there are many NT passages having to do with marriages that are "put away" that ARE valid in God's eyes and what He calls the second unions. Mt. 19:3-9, Mt. 5:32, Mk 10, Lk. 16:16-18, Rom. 7:2-3.

As for the disposition of "invalid" marriages, I don't think I ever said I was against ALL divorce. Putting away a marriage the Lord calls "sin" would not be something He hates as it would be considered the fruit of repentance--------see Ezra 9-10. God hates the putting away of a COVENANT spouse----not the putting away of one a person is committing adultery with.

Comment/question
You used the word "covenant" spouse. Please define that term.
Response
Read Malachi 2

Comment/question
I cannot possible put into a nut shell all the information that I found on this link (Instone/Brewer). It does discuss Paul's teaching in light of the life style of that time. You cannot take scripture without considering the history that surrounds it.
Response
I've read much Instone/Brewer Stuff and all I can say is that it matters not what SECULAR culture does or does not do in regards to marriage. It always must come down to the Word of God and what HE says marriage is and is not. The cultural traditions of the 1st/2nd century is no more weighty concerning truth and it's application than our current cultural applications of marriage. I think a much weightier thing to study in addition to the Word of God is what the EARLY CHURCH practiced in regards to divorce/remarriage. I will tell you that it taught very much that marriage was permanent until death. Adultery did NOT free the innocent to remarry.

Comment/question
Wife #2 wants out, but struggles with much..She has even said if God wants wife #1 and husband reconciled she would back off. However, husband wants nothing to do with having a close relationship with Lord, no desire to reconcile to wife #1, and wants to be with wife #2. What would your advice be (name deleted)?
Response
I hope you don't mind me answering (name deleted).

This would be my take on the situation: Wife #2 was committing adultery with another woman's husband. Wife #2 needs to repent fully by forsaking that relationship. She did a wonderful thing though in going to Wife #1 and confessing her part of the adultery. Wife #1 needs to be encouraged to continue praying for her covenant husband to come to repentance and their marriage restored.

Comment/question
I do not expect to change anyone's mind. Everyone here is honestly trying to present what they believe is the truth that God gives us in this issue. We have the Word. We have the Holy Spirit. We have sin and God's redemptive work. We see in part and understand in part. I imagine that when we stand before the Lord and we understand fully, both sides would go.........oh, I see. If only we understood that back then!
Response
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the 'tone' of your posts. Being in the situation, sometimes can make it very hard to separate oneself from the issues at hand. In any case, I think it really boils down to this for many of us---especially in the lives of GENUINE born again believers. If one is truly born again, they will have Christ living within them. Though they battle the flesh continually, their heart truly is on doing what is the Lord's will.........and sin, will be something they do not REALLY want to give in to---because they know it is because of sin that judgment is coming upon the world.

Whether one believes you can be saved and continue in willful sin because Jesus died for that willful sin or one believes that you must turn from known sin as a fruit of repentance/salvation, in either case, we know that God cannot tolerate sin----it must be judged and dealt with. Sin cannot stand in His presence. We cannot teach/encourage willful sin to occur because of redemption. If one is either "in" sin or contemplating sin and they see the scriptures say what they do (whosoever marries one who is divorced, commits adultery----whosoever puts away their wife/husband and marries another commits adultery) and they ignore these passages, I fear for them because they have opened a door WIDE.

Deep deception occurs. It occurs because we've given Satan an "in" into our lives. The Lord then gives us over to our depravities if we continue down that road. If we stay in that place too long, the deception takes hold deeply and pretty soon many who think they are doing "ok" by the Lord are really deeply entrenched in sin and excusing it---either because of the actions of another or because they have weaknesses themselves they have not dealt with. The enemy laughs. Where there are excuses for sin, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God in it.

I think there are quite a few of us here who are not trying to smack someone over the head with "law", but are trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, as well as spare those who either may be contemplating it or who may contemplate it in the future. As I've stated before, I know people who have repented of (forsaken) adulterous remarriages. There is much pain involved in doing so----pain that could have been avoided IF those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand, OR heeded it earlier in their adulterous relationships. If only we could all see ahead.......see our rebellion, see how the Lord will deal with us down the road bringing conviction..........much destruction in our own lives as well as the destruction we bring into our children's lives could be avoided.

I feel horrible not only for the children of a 1st marriage when a third person is allowed into the mix, but also for the children born of a second union, when the first spouse gets convicted they are living in a state of adultery with the second spouse. Those children would not have had to face such difficult circumstances had their parents made more Godly choices. Not only those children, but the step children as well who may become attached to the second spouse. Those who are in second/third marriages might think things are going swell right now, so this does not apply, but what if the Lord starts dealing with you? What if the Word you thought meant something else, now comes alive to you and you SEE you are in adultery? As I said, if only we could see down the road....

Yes, we all see dimly for now (hence progressive revelation and progressive conviction), but no one will ever convince me the Lord gives permission for "love to fail"......ie; give up, move on, not endure, seek his/her own best. When I read I Cor. 13, THAT is the picture of TRUE LOVE for a Christian. For a Christian to teach/encourage other Christians to ""seek their best" because surely the Lord wouldn't want them to suffer"...........I can't agree with that because it just does not line up with either the HEART of God, nor His Word to us. We are called to DIE, so that HE may live. We were not called to die so that we may live nicer, better, more comfortable lives. We were called to DIE, so that HE may be glorified through us.

Comment/question
Why then does so many people believe that it is ok to divorce? I know so many people who are remarried and it make me worry about their fate.
Response
It's like so many other types of sins. When anything begins to be acceptable by a small minority, that number grows until it is accepted by a majority (as Paul said, "a little leaven leavens the whole batch"). When there is acceptance, it makes something once thought of as immoral much easier to do. The acceptance of homosexuality we are now beginning to see in the church, is what it used to be like with divorce when it first started to become accepted in the church...........

We are now a society that bases belief and practice on personal circumstance, feelings, and personality. It is called situational ethics and that mindset is alive and well in the Christian Churches of today. In this mindset God is a god who accepts any and all behaviors because He loves mankind and knows we are just lowly sinners and can't help ourselves. The problem with this teaching/mindset is that the Lord said there is a day coming, maybe much sooner than we realize, when the Lord will descend from heaven with all His Holy Angels and exact His wrath upon the ungodly(II Thess. 1:7-10) and the "many" who say "Lord, Lord".........(Mt. 7:21-23), but have instead been workers of lawlessness/iniquity. We so need to get back to the Word of God and off our own thoughts and reasonings. The days are getting shorter............but thankfully the Lord is longsuffering towards us (II Pet. 3:9-10).

Comment/question
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God would never bless a re-marriage considering you believe that all remarriages are constant states of adultery?
Response
I believe that God's rain falls on the just and the unjust, as scripture states. I also believe that many can "appear" blessed, but not be in the Will of God. Take Bill Gates for example. He is the wealthiest man in the world and probably one of the world's biggest donors of charity. Are God's blessings upon him? I believe so, though I don't believe He knows or is living the Will of God............

Comment/question