General Questions & Comments

Comment/question
I was just wondering ... do you ensure that you wear a headcovering in church? Do you always remain silent in church, or do you sometimes take part in the service, even if in some small way? Paul advocated both these things very strongly, but they are pretty much discarded in Western society. If you interpret Paul's words so very legalistically in regard to marriage, I would hope you would do the same regarding these other things.

I feel somewhat saddened that you are still ignoring the fact that God DOES bless remarriage and DOES help people move on.

Interestingly, in thinking about God's covenant with Israel, He kept His side of the covenant, but Israel did not. God refers to giving Israel a certificate of divorce. Then He talks about forgiving her and taking her back. However, He resolved it completely by making a NEW covenant - that of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, and placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

Sometimes God allows people to make new covenants, as the old ones are no longer standing. Sadly, some folks are obviously not prepared to accept this, in spite of many people explaining the Scriptures in just as valid a way as theirs, and in spite of testimonies of God's love, renewal and restoration going on all around them. It really is sad.
Response
I say this not in an angry or frustrated way, but in sadness. To me, it is quite sad that people do not follow God's Word on what HE determines to be lawful and unlawful. We hear people who profess to be Christians say such things as this: "I know many people will disagree with me, but I "feel"".............."I don't "think" God wants any of us to be alone the rest of our lives"..................."surely God wouldn't expect me/her/us, etc........."

Where is the Lord's Word? I see concerning this particular subject a flat out rejection of Paul's teachings............and a flat out rejection of Jesus' labeling of another marriage while one has a living spouse as ADULTERY. Instead, what I see are many, many arguments as to why we can go ahead and disobey and not remain "unmarried" and how God will and DOES bless those who commit adultery. None of this has any scriptural backing. There is no scriptural backing to state that our current divorce/remarriage practices are ok because of our changing "customs"............ I don't recall the Lord or Paul saying that women who do not wear head coverings will not inherit the kingdom of God, so I'm not quite sure why you are holding this practice/lack of practice on par with adultery----which the Lord has MUCH to say on in the New Testament.

I'm not against discussing head coverings or Western prosperity, but it seems to me that some of these other issues are brought into this conversation to minimize the sin of adultery somehow.......or excuse it away. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Comment/question
I used to be on the side of the fence with the no divorce, no remarriage crowd. It seemed so black and white. But over the years what I thought I understood and what I saw in reality were not adding up so I knew I must have missed the truth somewhere.
Response
If what you saw in the Word of God was so black and white, what in God's Word changed your mind...........or did relationship change your mind----meaning you saw what looked like "blessed" relationships even though the Word of God called them adultery?

Comment/question
"Till death do you part." I assure you while my spouse was certainly not dead, the relationship died a long time ago.
Response
No relationship is truly "dead" unless one of the spouses is dead. The Lord is ABLE to revive anything that "looks" dead. The Word of God states that a woman is bound to her husband by law until death (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). I would encourage you to pray for your spouse and your marriage and don't give up by entering into an adulterous marriage. You may be very sorry later down the road and then faced with the terrible decisions some brothers and sisters have had to make when the Lord convicts them of their adultery by His Word.

Comment/question
Are you anti-remarriage folk denying that God is blessing remarriages around the world?
Response
I have said this before and I truly believe it..........the Lord deals with each of us according to HIS timing. Because we "appear" to be blessed doesn't mean we don't have sin in our lives which needs to be addressed/dealt with. It just means that God up to this point, has chosen to deal with other areas first.

Comment/question
I was being obedient to God in not divorcing....my former spouse said that "God told me to divorce you" which is not what His Word says....
Am I to be held in bondage to her "sin" ???
Response
Are you asking if it's ok to disobey God because your wife did? I don't believe scripture allows for such a thing. Just because a wife "departs", that doesn't mean her husband is free to move on. In Rom. 7:2-3 we see that even if a wife DOES depart and marry another, the bond is still intact with her first husband----her adultery does not dissolve that bond---his(the first husband's) DEATH does.

Comment/question
This is why God is able to bless a remarriage that is formed in Christ - and He does.
Response
But, IS a remarriage Jesus Himself called adultery, "formed in Christ"?

Comment/question
I have yet to hear a satisfying argument as to how these words of Jesus and their general implications for how we look at scriptural mandates can be reconciled with the views of those who would place strict limits, without consideration of extenuating circumstances, on remarriage.
Response
The problem I see with many of these type statements is that they presume that MAN is placing limits. Not true. God in His Word has placed limits on MAN. Some of us believe those "limits" pertain to us and should be honored, lest we enter into and remain in sin-----in the sight of GOD. It truly doesn't matter what man has said. It only matters what God says.

In NT teachings on divorce/remarriage, the Lord Jesus has spoken of the indissolvable bond of marriage and the state of adultery one will be in should they cleave to another besides whom He joined them to. Paul reaffirms Jesus' teachings on the matter, teaching in Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39 and I Cor. 7:10-12 that only death will dissolve this bond---not adultery by remarriage, not "extra-marital" adultery, not a divorce, and not desertion. Those of us who believe it is God who determines who is lawfully "joined by Him" and who are committing adultery, are relying on God's Word for guidance, not "personal, private interpretations".

Comment/question
Instead, I suggest that the Matthew 12 material (e.g. the first 14 verses) delivers a devastating blow to any position that claims that even God places "hard and fast" rules in regard to anything. I realize this is probably a very unconventional position, but that does not make it wrong.
Response
Yes, I do believe you are wrong because Jesus DID say that to marry another after a divorce is adultery. He did not mince words. We can try to muddy His Words, but they stand and His judgments are all that should matter to those who profess to follow Him. Paul's teachings to BELIEVERS about not being deceived---- that those who practice such (adultery, fornication, murder, lying, etc) would not inherit the kingdom of God, but have their part in the lake of fire-----need to be considered by those who would try to make light of Jesus' judgments on sin and the need for repentance.

Obviously, in the early church they were walking under the same false assumptions as some do today----that they can continue to serve the flesh and God too. Paul told them not to be deceived. We, in the modern church, who seem to be thinking along the same lines (we can serve flesh and God at the same time), need to heed Paul's words as well.

Comment/question
The argument seems rather clear to me and anything I might say in defence of it would probably be a repeat of what I have already said. I know what Jesus says about divorce and remarriage, just like I know what God says in the OT about work on the Sabbath. I would challenge anyone to argue that the content of Matt 12 (v1 to v14) does not clearly teach that even God's "rules" are imperfect and sometimes need to be violated in order to fulfill God's higher purposes.
Response
And I would say that you are treading on very dangerous ground and I would not want to be in your position on THAT DAY----being one who is leading others to believe that God is not to be obeyed in the things we do not wish to obey Him in........... the sins we are called to repent from, we don't really have to repent from  Sorry, I don't find that biblical in any sense.

Comment/question
Why can’t we all stop getting hung up on the divorce/remarriage issue, and start getting involved with making a difference in the quality of the pre or post martial relationships stuff! LOL We can talk about divorce/remarriage until the cows come home! LOL it won’t make a difference!
Response
Many of us can't "stop getting hung up on the MDR issue" because the Lord says it is ADULTERY and many within the professing church are committing adultery and don't even KNOW IT!! Why? Because it is not preached in the pulpits today as it was in times gone by. People need to stand up and show forth what GOD SAYS on the matter. When people know the seriousness of marriage in God's sight-----their foundation will change. If they know BEFORE they commit adultery, that that's what they are thinking to do (divorce/get remarried), it WILL change their minds/hearts----if they truly DO love the Lord.

It's much better to accept one's situation and then work on it, knowing you have no other choices----than it is to walk blindly into sin, believing it ok with the Lord and finding out later you were wrong. I grieve at so many just following the lead of others right into sin, not knowing any better. At least if this is talked about, NO ONE will be able to stand before the Lord on that day and say "I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS COMMITTING ADULTERY"

Comment/question
So what you are saying is it is better to talk about how divorce is sin - and not talk about the issues of why divorce happens to begin with?

To me it would seem like those two would go hand in hand. Don't speak against the treachery that happens within marriage - just remind them that you can't divorce over it? The definition of adultery is much better than dealing with the act?!

I don't buy that AT ALL! If you are dealing with the treachery of marraige that some lay down - I bet they can figure out for themselves that is wrong! You want to throw in your bible verses about remarriage is adultery - fine! You can't stop there though! That isn't addressing the root issue at all! Address the root issue, and maybe you will have more people listening to the other part a lot better!

I read TONS of people, preachers, etc saying GOD HATES DIVORCE - but what I don't see is them dealing with why it may happen to being with. You can't address one and forget about the other and think it is going to work out okay. It may work for some - but its the other ones you need to have hear! Constantly repeating your verses ain't working - why not try a different angle?
Response
How many preachers actually QUOTE scripture(line upon line---not just Mal. 2) on divorce/remarriage? I can tell you---- not very many. On the other hand, they WILL quote the scriptures on how to be a Godly husband/wife (many times these scriptures are mixed in with a whole lot of secular psychology---in my opinion). There are marriage seminars galore on how to treat one's spouse. So getting information/scripture to the people of God is NOT the problem. The teachings of submission and love are there in the church, yet they are not being heeded. THAT is the problem.

And because of this mindset, we are where we are today: as in the OT, people think they CAN divorce---then remarry with the approval of God(albeit after confessing their sins), yet they are ignorant concerning the words of Jesus and Paul on the matter of divorce/remarriage. Many will even say, "What? to remarry is to commit adultery? I never heard that before!"...........or someone will argue about Jesus' meaning, trying to spiritualize away His assessment of this sin......."I know Jesus said "adultery", but surely He didn't really mean it. Maybe the "act" of marriage was adultery, but somehow by God's grace it turns into a lawful relationship"...........yet that position is completely without biblical support.

I think you are very wrong in your belief that we should not talk about remarriage=adultery. It is very necessary, since the problem of adultery is very much a problem in the professing church of Christ.

Comment/question
I agree that if one truly repents then God forgives them...BUT to repent means to stop doing the sin. So for an adulterer to repent of adultery they have to confess and FORSAKE the adultery.

How does a person repent of a homosexual lifestyle?

How does a person repent of being a thief?

They have to confess it and stop doing it.

And if Jesus says remarriage is adultery, then how does one repent of remarriage???
Response
Yes, exactly! I think many today have a skewed idea of what the "fruit" of repentance is.

I spoke to a woman last week on the phone who is in a remarriage. Through long, hard, study she was convinced that her WHOLE relationship (2nd marriage)was sin in God's sight---even though everyone was telling her she was not in sin. Since they could not show her scripturally that her adultery had turned "lawful", she remained unconvinced by their persuasions.

When she was convinced herself of the scriptures, she called her first husband to ask his forgiveness for what she had done to their marriage and for the adultery she was presently in. She then moved out of the bedroom of her 2nd husband.........and most recently she took the step to move from the home. This is true repentance. She sees her relationship as the Lord does. She did not merely say she was "sorry" for committing adultery against her 1st husband and then continue in the adulterous relationship with her 2nd husband.

Comment/question
It is clearly stated that when an adulterer is present in the marriage then you have the option to leave. What does that mean? That means that you may not only choose to forgive, but you may choose to annul that marriage.
Response
As I said before, this idea is what I have issue with----if one CHOOSES to forgive? Do we have a "choice" to forgive or not to forgive? Sorry, but "moving on" to someone new is walking in unforgiveness and outwardly stating that one WILL NOT forgive and be reconciled to the one God joined them with. However, some believe that others CAN choose to forgive and to either accept back a repentant spouse or to "stand" praying, no matter the length of time for a spouse who is wayward. Which choice seems to align with the very heart of Jesus? It seems clear to me.

Comment/question
Let me draw your attention to the specific references within the text, to those places where scripture is refuted, and the authority of the Roman Church placed above the word of God.
Response
For me, I don't care too much for the RC Church. There are many things within it that make me cringe. However, on the topic of divorce/remarriage, though this document was put together in the 1600's, it very much aligns with what the church practiced in the first and second centuries---way before Constantine and "Popes" came into being.

I do not see in regards to the indissolubility of marriage where they are scripturally "off" in that document. They allow for separation (I Cor. 7:10-11), yet they hold fast to the permanency of the marriage bond til death (I Cor. 7:39, Rom. 7:2-3), denying that adultery does away with that marriage bond. If you read the Shepherd of Hermas' writings, you will find that the "innocent" would be charged with adultery should they remarry. There is very much a consistency in the earliest writings on divorce/remarriage all the way down the line until the reformation, when marriage/divorce practices started changing.

I believe, in trying to repudiate the false teachings found within the RC Church, the reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater. Many of the reformers could not even agree with each other on what dissolved a marriage and who was able to remarry, so practices in the reformed churches were not consistent. We are now seeing the end result of their inconsistencies. Today, some churches believe remarriage is ok---that a divorce(no matter the reason) dissolves the first union. Some churches believe that adultery dissolves a marriage union. Some churches teach that it is adultery to remarry, but the remarriage nullifies the previous marriage. Some churches teach that the remarriage is adultery until confession is made, then it becomes a lawful marriage in God's sight. Confusion..........that's all I see in the present day's church on this issue.

The thing that grieves me beyond measure is that there are people who have entered into 2nd marriages who ARE convicted they are living in a state of perpetual adultery since they have a spouse who is still living. Many a pastor has tried to brush away those convictions.......and the people in such cases remain in torment----because of what they see in the Word of God. Those pastors cannot explain why repentance is lived out in one way concerning some illicit relationships(forsaking the sin), yet concerning this sin why they are counselling in opposition to this(to remain in that illicit relationship).

There is one teacher in particular, John Piper, whom I just love. I think he is grounded in many areas of doctrine. He, in the 80's, came to the conclusion that the marriage bond remains intact until death---no matter what. He will not marry divorced persons under any circumstance(though other pastors in his church will). He believes that the "exception" clause does not pertain to adultery within the marriage and gives allowance for divorce/remarriage. Yet, though he believes neither adultery nor divorce can dissolve the marriage bond, he will counsel those in 2nd marriages(adultery) to remain together.......even though he sees the relationship as adultery. Somehow God's grace covers "this" sin. Though I am glad to see that he has been given eyes to see the permanency of marriage, I am sad to see that his practices are contradictory. Either a marriage bond is til death or it is not. He says it is, yet allows for remarriages to continue. Again, confusion

Comment/question
Slowly, it is dawning on me, that you are willing to take the word of men, over the word of the Lord, whereas experience has shown many times, that He IS the Word and His word really does break open mysteries.
Response
I supposed it is much easier to believe that a man taught me what I now believe than to believe God just may have shown it to me as I sought Him in His Word.

Truly, it is the Word which I rely upon above all.........that is why, I believe, my views are at odds with many in the modern day Western Church. They elevate feelings and experiences over what the Word of God speaks. If someone asks a question, many will point to so and so's book on the topic because they don't know how to answer. Instead of saying "thus saith the Lord".......they say "surely the Lord wouldn't........." based upon what they or someone they love is going through. The truth is that the church is filled today with humanistic teachings. "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" sermon deals with humanism in the church and I'm afraid that this mindset towards self surely has infiltrated the church in regards to marital practices----the evidence of this is plain to see in all the divorces and remarriages and all the justifications for such.

Confusion on what God says in His Word and the infiltration of humanism in the church is why there is such diverse, confused teachings on divorce/remarriage within the confessing Body of Christ. Do you believe all the varying camps on the MDR issue are following the Word of the Lord? If so, how can that be? Could it be possible that the confusion is a result of men listening to "men" telling them what the Word of God means? I personally think that is the case since I have had men's teachings pushed at me from pastors who could not answer my questions or the questions of my husband. I don't mind sharing good reading materials with others, but I won't push something as truth unless I can firmly discuss it from the Word of God myself.

Comment/question
I've been musing on your last question to me, and I've come up with one of my own, which may help me to understand something more about the reason you take the stance you do.
Response
I don't know why you won't accept my words. Why I take the stance I do is because of what I see in God's Word. NONE of my beliefs are based upon emotional reasonings or indoctrinations of man-----or over spiritualizing some passage taken completely out of context. I DID believe one could remarry once upon a time----BEFORE I studied this out for myself.

As for betrothal being what Jesus speaks of, as I said, I don't grab hold of that view 100% as truth. However, it is something that cannot be discounted as we have a SCRIPTURAL precedent of this occurring(Mt. 1:18-24). It's not something I made up to boost my point of view. It is there for all to see and weigh it's meaning in the larger scope of this issue.

Personally, I don't know how anyone who truly desires to seek the truth on this matter can discount, without even a second thought, that this very well could be what Jesus was speaking about, since we find this "exception" ONLY in the Gospel of Matthew---a gospel aimed at JEWS who practiced the betrothal custom.

I also don't know how anyone in good conscience can discard the possibility that "porneia" can very well be speaking of UNLAWFUL unions----unions that God DID NOT join together. That, in my opinion, is the only type of marital union that truly can be put away and there be NO hardheartedness, as it is an act of obedience to the Lord and the forsaking of a sinful relationship NOT joined by God (adulterous, homosexual, incestual).

In any case, getting back to the betrothal custom, in the other two gospels, aimed at Gentile audiences, they had no such betrothal custom, only marriage. There we find NO exception made. The sin of adultery is charged to ANYONE who joins himself/herself with another unlawfully or takes another's spouse after a divorce has occurred. This teaching is NOT found in the Mosaic law. A divorce gave permission for the parties to marry another(Deut.24:1-4). Jesus changed that to say that now a divorce did not give right to marry again, but whosoever did so would be committing adultery in His sight.

The other thing which SHOULD make one pause and consider is what I speak of all the time---WHY, if adultery gave means to a dissolvement of marriage as some suppose the Mt. 19:9 passage means----WHY did Paul use the example of an adulterous woman (remarried) in regards to the permanency of the marriage bond (death is what severs the bond and frees one to remarry). No mention of divorce on the part of the innocent party.

If, as some contend, Paul is speaking of OT Mosaic law, why use the same wording when speaking to ANOTHER Christian group (I Cor. 7:39). If Paul is speaking of Mosaic law, it was NOT adultery to remarry after a divorce. I believe it is because the "law" Paul is speaking of is NOT the Mosaic law, it is God's law of marriage, which Jesus speaks of in His discourse---bringing marriage back to the created intent for marriage. THAT is the standard the Lord holds us to. That is why He speaks of joining oneself with another as adultery---because that person does not belong to the one who took them---until their rightful spouse dies as Paul teaches.

No hardheartedness is permitted---at all, that is why for a Christian, there is NO option to forgive. We MUST forgive or we will not be forgiven. When I hear a Christian say that we have an option in this regard, I cannot understand that mindset. What they are saying is that there IS a difference between the one who DOES forgive and either is reconciled or "stands" for the wayward spouse and the person who will NOT accept back a wayward spouse. Does the Lord look on each in an equal manner? For me, it always comes back to "how would Jesus handle such a situation?".......and there, I find my answer to what is right in His sight.

Comment/question
(Name Deleted) had it right when he said the faithful spouse could 'walk away forgivingly'.
Response
I disagree. As I asked, what is the difference TO THE LORD in one who "walks away" never turning back and the one who "remains unmarried", desiring their wayward spouse to repent and remaining faithful to the Lord and spouse---even if the spouse never repents? Is one right/one wrong---both right? What scriptures would you give to justify either position?

Comment/question
Not only has God done this for us in Christ, knowing that only a few will be reconciled to Him,
Response
Here is what the Lord states concerning those who have yet to repent:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (II Pet. 3:9).
and:
I Cor. 13........love .........suffers long, does not seek its own, bears all things, believes all things, hopes for all things, endures all things..........Love NEVER fails.

Marriage is compared to Christ and the Church. Do you not think that we are to conduct ourselves towards one another(husbands/wives) as Christ does to His Body? Until the day comes when death embraces a person or His Second Advent comes, a person STILL has a chance at "life" and reconciliation with Jesus. Why should we not be of the same mind towards the one God joins us to?
Comment/question
Forgiving someone and staying with them are two different things Sister.
Response
Who said that one had to "stay" with someone who is unrepentant? Paul addressed that (I Cor.7:10-11). However, if someone IS repentant and wants their marriage restored, yet the other will NOT restore, how is that forgiveness? When someone "moves on" the door to reconciliation of that relationship has been slammed shut. What picture does that send to our children on the nature of God's love towards us? Not a very good one in my opinion........

If we are to bring in other types of relationships, we must acknowledge that there is no other relationship like a marriage---none. It is so different and special that it is used as a Picture of Christ and the Church(His Body). When one of us sins against Him, even spiritual adultery----does He cast us out never to be reconciled to us again or, does He desire that we repent and our relationship restored? I think we'll both agree on the answer to that one. Are we different in how we are to respond then?

Comment/question
Your question as I see it is how can I say someone truly repents and then is okay to go back into a relationship that is sinful?

There are many layers of issues to deal with here.
Response
I see that you believe that if one repents of adultery, that it is all well and fine, but that adultery and/or divorce dissolves the marriage (covenant/first) marriage. What do you make of Hosea and Gomer? She committed adultery, yet their marriage was NOT dissolved in the eyes of God. He waited for her. Also, we see Paul preaching in Rom. 7:2-3 that neither a woman's adultery, nor remarriage dissolves her covenant marriage, but that only her husband's death will do so (No mention of a divorce by Paul as having the power to dissolve what God joined together).

Also, we see in the case of Herod/Herodias that neither her adultery/remarriage nor her divorce from Philip seemed to dissolve her marriage to Philip. John told Herod that he had Philip's wife. So, in the case of Herodias, would it not appear that her repentance from adultery would mean forsaking her present "marriage" that was unlawful and that she should return to her lawful husband, or remain "unmarried" if he was unwilling to reconcile?

Comment/question
I don't believe the Lord would want her at that point to go on as a young woman in her twenties with a sexual drive and be single and to be constantly pulled by the world and her natural sex drive to have sex with men once in a while when she hits low points. Rather she should find herself a good Christian man and get married.
Response
So it is your belief that "flesh" reigns over what Paul taught (FROM THE LORD)-----that "if a woman does depart, she is to remain unmarried or reconciled with her husband." What if the husband has "moved on" and he refuses to reconcile........or if he has not moved on, but still refuses to reconcile? Is it still your belief that because a woman has sexual desires it is ok to disobey the Lord in "remaining unmarried"?

Comment/question
Repentance does normally entail a turning away from the sin and doing the right thing. In some cases it is impossible to try to reconcile with your former spouse.
Response
Why is it impossible? If someone is in sin (adultery) and the Lord did not recognize a divorce as dissolving the marriage, and His Will is for a covenant husband and wife to reflect the relationship of Jesus and the Church, how is that impossible? Are not ALL things possible to those who love God? If Gomer's heart and lifestyle can change and Hosea and Gomer's relationship reflect that of Jesus and the Church, how can that pattern NOT be repeated with those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Comment/question
Remember the Lord looks on the heart not on simply on actions. If the heart is right before him He knows that and that is what counts.
Response
You are right. We can DO the right things(based upon the Word of God) for the wrong reasons, or we can do what appears "right" for the wrong reasons(not based upon the Word of God). The second is very dangerous ground for the Christian. I see on this forum MUCH "doing what is right in one's own sight" and not based upon what the Lord has said. WAY too much reasoning and not enough self-sacrifice and obedience to the Lord during the trials of life------where the power of God WILL be manifested in the lives of those who faithfully rely upon the Lord and do not follow their own reasonings and ill counsel of others----which in the end, brings destruction to the ONE flesh that GOD (not man) brought together----for HIS purposes.

Comment/question
However the person may not be able to do "the right thing" ... lilfe may make it impossibe ... however God knows the heart and knows that if they could, they would.
Response
So you don't believe that the Holy Spirit gives people the power to OVERCOME? Now, I completely understand the position of the unbeliever or confessed believer who really hasn't been born again----they can't help but to sin. However, those who truly ARE born again, have the power to not sin/turn away from present sinful relationships and remain faithful to their covenant mate and God, who also is involved in the covenant marriage.

Comment/question
Lets say a woman divorces her husband because she has found a new and better lover or some other wrong reason.

She obtains the divorce and remarries this new and better man.

Ten years go by and the Lord has been working in her heart and finally she sees where she was wrong and confesses it to the Lord and her heart is broken for what she did so many years ago.

In the meantime her new husband and her have had four children together.
Response
Let's say the woman took another woman's husband and the first wife has been standing for her husband to repent from his adultery? Who is the man's wife in the Lord's eyes and who is not? Is a marriage lawful based upon what we want or is it lawful based upon what God says?

Comment/question
Life may take us down some roads that make it impossible to actually go back to our first spouse even if we are truly repentant.
Response
Then we have the Lord's admonishment is such cases: Remain unmarried. (I Cor. 7:10-11). There was no other course of action offered. A covenant marriage is lifelong.

Comment/question
Is divorce the ONLY option? No! In fact the Bible is clear from cover to cover that the heart of true believer is to forgive and restore. Forgiveness is never an option, however restoration in the case of sexual sin is.
Response
Again, I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are given an "option" to reconcile with our One Flesh (the one God joins us to).

Comment/question
I'm through.

Clearly you have you mind made up, so be it.

Your belief is in the minority and there are those who have far more knowledge on the Bible then you and I who say you are wrong.
Response
(Name Deleted), I am more than willing to have scriptures shared with me on this topic. What I can't embrace are people's "opinions" on what God thinks. I think Jesus has spoken clearly that divorce does not dissolve the marriage bond(hence adultery takes place with a new marriage)...........and I have provided the scriptural reasons why I believe as I do.

I hope you do not place your faith in the "majority", because throughout scripture, the majority has ALWAYS been opposed to the Lord's ways. The minority consisted of prophets who spoke against the wicked ways of Israel.........that minority was "killed" for speaking God's Word to those who chose to walk in opposition to Him. We also have Jesus' words that NARROW is the way of life and FEW are those who find it, but BROAD is the way of destruction and many walk that road. Jesus also said that on the day of judgment "MANY" would come and say "Lord, Lord".........but He would say to them, "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you".........

Can people be in the minority and be wrong? Absolutely. However, if one is in the minority with the Word of God at its side, and the majority is at ODDS with God's Word, I'd rather be in the minority...........and I hope you would be as well.

Comment/question
No matter the reason of a divorce, if you find your heart repenting (very important) of ANY sin, that is the way to forgiveness in His Grace.
Response
I think the point of many of us is that "yes" one CAN repent of a unbiblical divorce----yet what one CAN'T do is erase the marriage that still exists in spite of the divorce. What has been shown numerous times, giving numerous scriptures as biblical support is that marriage not only is INTENDED for life, but IS for life. The only "marriages" that are NOT for life and CAN be repented of are those that are not lawful in the sight of God----adulterous remarriages, incestuous marriages, homosexual marriages, etc.

Comment/question
I would not divorce my wife based on your interpretations.....
Response
Nor should we ever do ANYTHING based upon someone else's interpretation (famous, well-reknowned, or obscure). We need to seek God with a heart truly desiring to know the truth. Whatever we do or don't do according to what we know to be Truth, we will held accountable for, on that day.

Comment/question
In a marriage If the evil is not purged, either by sanctification of the unbeliever by the believer so that “they might be saved” and the wife or the husband does did cry out but were in agreement thereof, then the marriage is dead. = the doorway of her father's house (judgement seat)

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day
Response
You are right, there will be a great SEPARATION, but it is not a divorce as likened to marriage, for in marriage those who are married KNOW each other. In that day (the day of Judgment), Jesus professes to NEVER know them, though they professed to know Him.

Your interpretation of scripture is greatly flawed in relation to the divorce/remarriage practice I believe. You are using scriptures which are completely unrelated to the topic at hand to justify disobedience to what the Lord has CLEARLY declared on the matter. "private" interpretations of scripture are clearly spoken against and that is what you are doing with God's Word on this issue of divorce/remarriage.

Comment/question
Adultery cannot be both the sin and the justification for not being in sin at the same time. In other words, if divorce and remarriage is adultery, and adultery is the justification for divorce and remarriage, then any divorce and remarriage automatically becomes legal. It is obvious that Jesus Christ would not make such an error in reasoning.
Response
Absolutely correct..........and the woman of Rom. 7:2-3 WOULDN'T be called an adulteress (she would be called a lawful wife of the 2nd husband).

Comment/question
Remarriage is a new contract or covenant and is not adultery once sincerely confessed and repented of.
Response
What if one does not "sincerely" acknowledge they committed adultery when they joined with someone who is NOT their spouse? Are they still adulterers? When exactly does one punch through the "sin gauntlet" and a sinful relationship then become a non-sinful relationship? Also, how does one whom the Lord says is "not your spouse"---the definition of adultery----then become your spouse? It sure doesn't appear in Rom. 7:2-3 that the second man Paul speaks of is the lawful husband-----Paul says the first one is----until he dies.

Comment/question
Both parties share some amount of blame for the disintegration of the marriage. So before I get beat over the head about that, it should be perfectly clear that even though both share some blame, one is the primary cause of troubles while the other is a secondary cause. For example, a cheating spouse having inappropriate relations outside the marriage is a chief cause and the primary one causing the dissolution while the other spouse who has not given 100%, but probably 90+% is a secondary cause. Enough said.

So then the one who is a chief cause is the one who acted treacherously and therefore the one who is the target of the condemnations of divorce. The primary offender is the one who has the hard heart that leads to the dissolution.
Response
Let's see........there is sin on both parts of the marriage partners.......there is a scale......one person's sins are weightier than the others (according to outward appearance, anyways).........God then says, "ok, good enough. Her/His sins are worse, you are allowed your walking papers AND not only that, but you can replace her/him with a "better", less sinful model.........and if that person you next marry end up with sins on scale WORSE than yours, you may again, replace her/him with another model better than the last".....

Is that how it works........according to scripture? The fruit of your "reasonings" are that over 70% of second marriages fail and over 90% of third marriages fail........The fruit reveals that for most, joining with anyone other than one's covenant spouse will lead to MORE unhappiness and brokenness---------not only with the couples involved, but with the children, in-laws, extended family, etc. The forsaking of one's original marriage vows affect MANY other people negatively.........forcing others to accept relationships they do not want to accept. If offenses abound on the part of the ones who have forsaken their marriage vows and have joined with another, family ties are broken or strained at the very least. Is this God's best, ----for people to join themselves with other's wives/children/in-laws/grandparents, etc and to suffer the turmoil that brings?

I stand on what I said earlier: "It all comes back to---- how does Jesus love?.........if we say we have Him in us and we do not "love" as He loves, then we are not walking by the Spirit, but are setting our minds on the things of the flesh"........

Hence all the "reasons" why one will continue to say they were justified in moving on and replacing the one God joined them to.

Comment/question
That is why God does not hold the divorce against the repentant sinner who was the victim of the divorce. Would you hold the other person's sin against them? Just curious.

It is God's best to offer mercy. It is God's best to offer hope. It is man's foolishness to live by works of the flesh.
Response
No, I would not hold the other person's sin against them...........but I would tell them that THEIR sin (past tense) is a cause of the divorce........Just because one finally sees the error of their ways, comes to the Lord and repents, does not mean their partner in life is on the same page at the same time. They are not the "innocent" one as you seem to think. The LORD worked repentance in them. The "innocent" spouse you speak of is unwilling to allow the time for the LORD to work repentance in their spouse, but instead desires to replace the one God joined them to.

I've seen people frustrated because they have come to a true repentance for past sins and they have changed their conduct towards their mate, children, friends, etc......but the offended party is not yet READY to let go of the hurt. They are still lashing back at the repentant one, maybe even "getting back" at the one who hurt them (spending family money foolishly, adultery, neglecting the home, etc). Do you believe it to be the Lord's will that the repentant one then forsake the still unrepentant one? Or do you think it is the Lord's will for the repentant one who received the heart to repent of their sins FROM THE LORD to extend that same mercy to the unrepentant one..........proving they REALLY ARE repentant and REALLY DO LOVE them?

Just a question: if I was a contentious, nasty wife........always yelling, belittling my husband and then he left me because he got tired of my lack of repentance----even though I stuck it out with him in spite of infidelity on his part earlier in the marriage........would that be ok on his part to depart and get a new wife---because I haven't yet repented of my ungodly/unloving conduct towards him? What if my conduct stemmed from FROM HIS SIN AGAINST ME?

Point: just because the Lord forgives does not mean that the ramifications of our sins are done away with. Many times we must make amends----proving our sincerity----not demanding because the Lord forgave us that others must forgive us as well. I think even having such an attitude begs the question on whether our repentance is truly genuine to begin with........did our sin REALLY break us? just a thought.

Comment/question
There are those that break God's commands and cause the divorce, and there are those left behind to pick up the pieces.
Response
That's a common thought, but one racked with error. If a man has not loved his wife as God commanded, HE can be the one responsible for the divorce. HE sinned in the sight of God, which caused his wife to sin (God does hold the husband MORE responsible in regards to a wife sinning). A husband's role is SO important towards his covenant wife that God likens it to Christ and the Church. The thing is that many husbands will throw away their "dirty" wives, instead of fulfilling their Godly role and "washing" them and loving them as he loves his own body and would never throw that out due to dirtiness. (Eph. 5).

Concerning a wife in the treatment of her covenant husband---did she honor/reverence her husband? If not, she sowed things in the marriage which brought about the divorce..........very, very, very few have lived PERFECTLY in a marriage and are not somehow/someway in small or large part, responsible for a divorce. As I've said, there are most certainly those who have been "left to pick up the pieces" due to their own large part in causing one to FEEL they HAD to flee........

I still see you using a "scale", .........and I know God does not use one. He does not judge as man does. If one is not 100% innocent, then they are guilty before God.

Comment/question
However in a root cause analysis, one is responsible for the tumble down the slippery slope to divorce and the other may not be.

If one spouse has purposed in their heart to hang in there until the dissolution is complete, i.e. the divorce, they remain innocent of the sin of divorce. So hence, there is no scale, either one or both are guilty of crossing the line to divorce. And if one spouse is not guilty of that sin, they are hence innocent. Do you still not understand this?
Response
No, I don't understand it........what I see is that many people today want to lay all the blame on the one who does the divorcing-----when many times the one divorcing felt COMPELLED to divorce due to things that occurred in the marriage. You seem to place the greatest guilt on the departing one for some reason.... Does the Lord? Do you not think that the Lord will hold accountable a husband who has hurt his wife, possibly causing her to stumble and sin........ You also suppose that it's ok for the one left as long as they "hang in there" until the divorce is complete........Do you not see that just "waiting til the ink dries" before moving on is another form of hardheartedness/unforgiveness----the same sin that led to a divorce in the first place?

Comment/question
If the separation does not repair the marriage, then what? If the ex-spouse does not meet their familial or financial obligations, then what? If the ex-spouse uses the separation to cause further harm to the family, then what?
Response
If a separation does not "repair" the marriage, then we continue to follow the Lord----remain unmarried OR be reconciled as He commanded.

If the spouse does not meet the family financial obligations? Is that a reason for one to get remarried---to take another man's wife or wife's husband to help provide for your family? Is it a good thing in the Lord's sight to possibly block the path for restoration of the original couple by getting oneself involve and taking that wayward person's family to themselves as their own family? Can you find this anywhere in scripture?

Comment/question
I cannot even begin to express how much this thread troubles me. To try and apply scripture irregardless of the life circumstances of a person is crazy.
Response
To me, to have the mindset to rebel against what the Lord has commanded due to one's circumstances is extremely troubling..........Jesus clearly states that "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father". Obedience to Him is not "law keeping".......it is evidence that we love Him. If we wont' obey (because we don't like what He says), we need to question our allegiance to Him for He says, "whosever loves me, obeys me". Our obedience even in those hard things shows that we trust Him above what we "see" in our life's circumstances.

Comment/question
Satan was at the Alter at my wedding,
And as far as the depths are concerned I believe he was having a very difficult time trying to get out from under my feet.

This was offered in the previous post
God is God and can separate whom he wishes when he wishes and most likely is “allowing” the failures in a marriage so the divorce will happen.
Response
What a very sad mindset to hold--------that God is allowing the failures in a marriage so divorce will happen.........Failures in a marriage happen due to SIN!!!! The Lord never wants a divorce to occur in a covenant marriage! See Mal. 2. The enemy of our souls however, is joyful when divorce happens. He is NOT at altar when we marry-----but the Lord IS and the Lord joins the two as One........

However, the enemy is always trying to cause the "flesh" to rise up so that what God joined together is destroyed and many times replaced with what Satan put together (a perversion of God's marriage). The thing is that neither we, nor the enemy can UNDO what God has done, no matter what we believe to the contrary.

Comment/question
I have been reading along and studying this subject, again, to see if I missed anything.

That is a fascinating interpretation of scripture you have there. Do you have any verses to back it up?

And one more question: When two people are in an invalid marriage how do they get out of it without getting a divorce?
Response
Sure, there are many NT passages having to do with marriages that are "put away" that ARE valid in God's eyes and what He calls the second unions. Mt. 19:3-9, Mt. 5:32, Mk 10, Lk. 16:16-18, Rom. 7:2-3.

As for the disposition of "invalid" marriages, I don't think I ever said I was against ALL divorce. Putting away a marriage the Lord calls "sin" would not be something He hates as it would be considered the fruit of repentance--------see Ezra 9-10. God hates the putting away of a COVENANT spouse----not the putting away of one a person is committing adultery with.

Comment/question
You used the word "covenant" spouse. Please define that term.
Response
Read Malachi 2

Comment/question
I cannot possible put into a nut shell all the information that I found on this link (Instone/Brewer). It does discuss Paul's teaching in light of the life style of that time. You cannot take scripture without considering the history that surrounds it.
Response
I've read much Instone/Brewer Stuff and all I can say is that it matters not what SECULAR culture does or does not do in regards to marriage. It always must come down to the Word of God and what HE says marriage is and is not. The cultural traditions of the 1st/2nd century is no more weighty concerning truth and it's application than our current cultural applications of marriage. I think a much weightier thing to study in addition to the Word of God is what the EARLY CHURCH practiced in regards to divorce/remarriage. I will tell you that it taught very much that marriage was permanent until death. Adultery did NOT free the innocent to remarry.

Comment/question
Wife #2 wants out, but struggles with much..She has even said if God wants wife #1 and husband reconciled she would back off. However, husband wants nothing to do with having a close relationship with Lord, no desire to reconcile to wife #1, and wants to be with wife #2. What would your advice be (name deleted)?
Response
I hope you don't mind me answering (name deleted).

This would be my take on the situation: Wife #2 was committing adultery with another woman's husband. Wife #2 needs to repent fully by forsaking that relationship. She did a wonderful thing though in going to Wife #1 and confessing her part of the adultery. Wife #1 needs to be encouraged to continue praying for her covenant husband to come to repentance and their marriage restored.

Comment/question
I do not expect to change anyone's mind. Everyone here is honestly trying to present what they believe is the truth that God gives us in this issue. We have the Word. We have the Holy Spirit. We have sin and God's redemptive work. We see in part and understand in part. I imagine that when we stand before the Lord and we understand fully, both sides would go.........oh, I see. If only we understood that back then!
Response
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the 'tone' of your posts. Being in the situation, sometimes can make it very hard to separate oneself from the issues at hand. In any case, I think it really boils down to this for many of us---especially in the lives of GENUINE born again believers. If one is truly born again, they will have Christ living within them. Though they battle the flesh continually, their heart truly is on doing what is the Lord's will.........and sin, will be something they do not REALLY want to give in to---because they know it is because of sin that judgment is coming upon the world.

Whether one believes you can be saved and continue in willful sin because Jesus died for that willful sin or one believes that you must turn from known sin as a fruit of repentance/salvation, in either case, we know that God cannot tolerate sin----it must be judged and dealt with. Sin cannot stand in His presence. We cannot teach/encourage willful sin to occur because of redemption. If one is either "in" sin or contemplating sin and they see the scriptures say what they do (whosoever marries one who is divorced, commits adultery----whosoever puts away their wife/husband and marries another commits adultery) and they ignore these passages, I fear for them because they have opened a door WIDE.

Deep deception occurs. It occurs because we've given Satan an "in" into our lives. The Lord then gives us over to our depravities if we continue down that road. If we stay in that place too long, the deception takes hold deeply and pretty soon many who think they are doing "ok" by the Lord are really deeply entrenched in sin and excusing it---either because of the actions of another or because they have weaknesses themselves they have not dealt with. The enemy laughs. Where there are excuses for sin, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God in it.

I think there are quite a few of us here who are not trying to smack someone over the head with "law", but are trying to free those who are already entrenched in what the Lord has called adultery, as well as spare those who either may be contemplating it or who may contemplate it in the future. As I've stated before, I know people who have repented of (forsaken) adulterous remarriages. There is much pain involved in doing so----pain that could have been avoided IF those involved would have known the Word of God beforehand, OR heeded it earlier in their adulterous relationships. If only we could all see ahead.......see our rebellion, see how the Lord will deal with us down the road bringing conviction..........much destruction in our own lives as well as the destruction we bring into our children's lives could be avoided.

I feel horrible not only for the children of a 1st marriage when a third person is allowed into the mix, but also for the children born of a second union, when the first spouse gets convicted they are living in a state of adultery with the second spouse. Those children would not have had to face such difficult circumstances had their parents made more Godly choices. Not only those children, but the step children as well who may become attached to the second spouse. Those who are in second/third marriages might think things are going swell right now, so this does not apply, but what if the Lord starts dealing with you? What if the Word you thought meant something else, now comes alive to you and you SEE you are in adultery? As I said, if only we could see down the road....

Yes, we all see dimly for now (hence progressive revelation and progressive conviction), but no one will ever convince me the Lord gives permission for "love to fail"......ie; give up, move on, not endure, seek his/her own best. When I read I Cor. 13, THAT is the picture of TRUE LOVE for a Christian. For a Christian to teach/encourage other Christians to ""seek their best" because surely the Lord wouldn't want them to suffer"...........I can't agree with that because it just does not line up with either the HEART of God, nor His Word to us. We are called to DIE, so that HE may live. We were not called to die so that we may live nicer, better, more comfortable lives. We were called to DIE, so that HE may be glorified through us.

Comment/question
Why then does so many people believe that it is ok to divorce? I know so many people who are remarried and it make me worry about their fate.
Response
It's like so many other types of sins. When anything begins to be acceptable by a small minority, that number grows until it is accepted by a majority (as Paul said, "a little leaven leavens the whole batch"). When there is acceptance, it makes something once thought of as immoral much easier to do. The acceptance of homosexuality we are now beginning to see in the church, is what it used to be like with divorce when it first started to become accepted in the church...........

We are now a society that bases belief and practice on personal circumstance, feelings, and personality. It is called situational ethics and that mindset is alive and well in the Christian Churches of today. In this mindset God is a god who accepts any and all behaviors because He loves mankind and knows we are just lowly sinners and can't help ourselves. The problem with this teaching/mindset is that the Lord said there is a day coming, maybe much sooner than we realize, when the Lord will descend from heaven with all His Holy Angels and exact His wrath upon the ungodly(II Thess. 1:7-10) and the "many" who say "Lord, Lord".........(Mt. 7:21-23), but have instead been workers of lawlessness/iniquity. We so need to get back to the Word of God and off our own thoughts and reasonings. The days are getting shorter............but thankfully the Lord is longsuffering towards us (II Pet. 3:9-10).

Comment/question
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God would never bless a re-marriage considering you believe that all remarriages are constant states of adultery?
Response
I believe that God's rain falls on the just and the unjust, as scripture states. I also believe that many can "appear" blessed, but not be in the Will of God. Take Bill Gates for example. He is the wealthiest man in the world and probably one of the world's biggest donors of charity. Are God's blessings upon him? I believe so, though I don't believe He knows or is living the Will of God............

Comment/question
In Case #1, since the husband will be put to death the wife would be considered ok to remarry once he has died and we are all in agreement with that. But how would you judge Case #2? Although this wife's husband will not die, and that is due only to the difference in state law but not the crime, would she be committing adultery if she divorced and remarried?

How about if the husband, who understands that because of his sentence he has nothing to offer her, decides to divorce her, setting her free. Would she be considered committing adultery if she remarried under these circumstances?
Response
Having "nothing to offer a spouse" does not allow the other to find another spouse. Would you try to use that same reasoning because one has a spouse who is incapacitated? God has spoken. We can use all the different scenarios we want to try and get around God's CLEAR word on the matter:

A wife is bound so long as her husband lives.........but if he dies, she is free to remarry (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).

Comment/question
Wouldn't it be a good idea to start a program to help couples who have decided to end their remarriages (because they discovered it as adultery) in separating. There was a suggestion from someone I know that communal living is a way to go (especially for those who have children in their remarriage), but I know where I live, no such thing exists.

Any ideas?
Response
What a wonderful idea. I know the logistics of such a thing could be very difficult though. Some of those affected would have to move away from family (extended) and that in itself could be hard on the person repenting. They would be moving away from part of their support system----if the family was supportive, that is.

In any case, I think it is a wonderful concept. We have places that support women who will not have an abortion, why not support women who are following the Lord in repentance and need help? I have been contacted by women before on this issue (what is a woman to do financially in such cases if she was a stay at home mom and did not have marketable skills). Such a hard issue, isn't it?

As (name deleted) said, the church SHOULD be helping such women, but many times when a person comes to the realization their marriage is adultery in the sight of God, churches instead push them away----because such a conviction brings judgment on those who are practicing contrariwise.........

Comment/question
Forgivness is not the same as acceptance. Yes we should always forgive. However their may be consequences of sin that make the prospect of keeping the marriage intact not fiesable.

This is how the Lord works with us. Of course He does not divorce his children. But that is not a fair comparison either. However even though He forgives us when we repent of some sin we have been engaged in .. He usually does not take away the consequences of our sin.
Response
I agree that forgiveness does not always equal restoration. We can forgive others, but they refuse to reconcile with us. However, all relationships are not created equal. Only the covenant husband and wife as joined by the Lord as ONE. No other relationship is such. As for divorce, the Lord does not put us out of relation with Him............He walks in I Cor. 13-----as we should. Are their repercussions for violating the marriage covenant, not only sexually either----yes. However, those who are submitted to the Lord will handle their actions/thoughts to come in line with the Lord and what HE would do.

Comment/question
The offended spouse may (and should) forgive their spouse for sexual sin, however depending on each situation and on each set of circumstances the marriage may not be repairable.
Response
EVERY marriage is reparable----if it is given to the Lord. Most however, do not do that, but make decisions based upon how they are feeling. Many also put time restraints on how long they will wait on the Lord and their spouse. That is a shame.

Comment/question
I have always understood the scriptures to say the following:

It is not sin for a faithful spouse to divorce an unfaithful spouse.
It is not sin for a Christian spouse to allow/cooperate with the non-Christian spouse in leaving/divorcing.
It is sin for either spouse to marry another unless the first spouse dies. This applies to the spouse who is faithful, unfaithful, Christian or non-Christian, neither spouse can marry while the other spouse lives (except to remarry each other if both are Christians or both are non-Christians).

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone who has repented of this sin with the second spouse and separated. Of course, both parents would still have responsibilities to their children from the second “marriage”.
Response
I am basically of the same mindset as you, on the issue of remarriage while one has a living spouse. I used to believe otherwise until I studied in depth for myself and quit reasoning emotionally and/or listening to preachers. I went straight to the Word of God with a heart to know truth and a Concordance. My mind was drastically changed. I often wonder if I were in that situation would I have come to the same conclusion........I do think BEING in the situation makes it much harder to come to this truth, though, unlike you, I do know people who have repented of their adulterous marriages---even some with young children.

It for sure is a very hard position to be in. However, once the Lord shows someone that their "marriage" is adultery, I don't see how any type of confession of guilt changes that sin into a lawful marriage while one still has a living covenant spouse. Just my two. Thanks for your contributions.

Comment/question
I have just been asked this question, and if I may....".If a person marries for the first time and discovers that their spouse has a former spouse, that means they( the previous 2) are still married in the eyes of the Lord. Is this considered adultery because the spouse who was married to someone else? The other person who was never married before now has to divorce as to not continue in adultery with this spouse? Where does the not married before person stand?" Thank you for the understanding.
Response
The not married before person, after repenting from taking another person's spouse in the eyes of the Lord, is FREE to marry lawfully in the sight of the Lord. I know some who would not because of how things appear to others who may not know the background---only that they were divorced. This is a commendable stance if one is so convicted.

Comment/question
Our powerful God WANTS to restore marriages, families, destinies, generations. He is able. May we begin to see that NO power is greater than His in these matters, not even a spouse that is obviously in rebellion and sin. He may need to humble us in the process. Let us not resign ourselves to the plan of the enemy to destroy/give up on people like they are trash. If we do not give up on our wayward kids, and we would never advise each other to do so, why do we quickly tell people to give up on their one flesh mate whose vows are made in covenant?
Response
Ah, this is something that many do not consider----the relationship of the ONE flesh. People think they can put aside, never to rejoin a COVENANT relationship that God Himself ordained AND joined as ONE(no longer two) until death. Yet, it is true that many mothers and fathers would NEVER think of permanently disowning their child. The truth is: there is no fleshly relationship like the covenantal marriage relationship. That is why the Word of God likens it to Jesus and the Church. It is THAT important. Believe me, as a mom who would DIE for my children, but, I can do nothing but elevate the marital relationship above motherhood, because the Word of God does.

Truly, the door should always be open to a "problem" child with Godly parents. However, those whose doors wouldn't be open to reconciliation after repentance would be shown as the hard-harded parents they are. Concerning marriage today, what we see happening many times is exactly the same hardheartedness of the parent who will NOT reconcile the relationship with their child. Instead, it is the offended partner in a marriage. Somehow, due to the offender's sin, the door (the relational door) is shut----permanenantly. The offender is then viewed as the "ex"...........but how does God still view them? I believe scripture clearly teaches that they are not the "ex", but are still in covenant relationship with the one God joined them to. In the same vein, a child who goes wayward, never stops being a child.

Many have acted out of ignorance and followed the masses. Those are the ones I really feel sad for, for when the scriptures come ALIVE to them, they are heartbroken..........yet all is not lost. The beauty of repentance is that any sin can be forsaken before it's too late(death)------for the wayward as well as those who have hardened their hearts against their wayward covenant spouse. I fear most for those who have hardened their hearts, entered into sinful relationships in the sight of the Lord, and are misusing the Word of God to encourage others to do the same...........I pray repentance would come in such cases and restoration of their own covenant marriages would take place........

Comment/question
Some of you claim to have repented of an adulterous marriage. What do you mean by that?
Response
I can answer that question. To repent from an adulterous remarriage means to forsake a relationship the Lord Himself has called adultery. Many seem to think today that if the civil authorities deem a marriage lawful, then God must believe it to be so also. The thing is that most would NOT say such a thing about a homosexual marriage. The Lord speaks against those types of sexual relationships a bit in scripture, but actually deals much more with adulterous remarriage. Jesus said to marry one who is divorced is to commit adultery----to join themselves with another person's spouse. That means a divorce did NOT dissolve the covenant of marriage in the Lord's eyes (Mal. 2) and those who come to the altar after doing so, crying---offering sacrifices, they will be rejected.

Many today say that in such cases all one needs to do is confess their sin of adultery and somehow the relationship the Lord called adulterous becomes a lawful marriage----the previous covenant marriage (that God joined together) being dissolved. However, the Word of God clearly shows that even in the case of adultery, that covenant marriage (those joined by God in LAWFUL marriage) endures until the death of one of them (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). Only then, is the remaining partner permitted to marry again in the eyes of the Lord. If they choose to enter into another marriage before that time, they are entering into an adulterous union. Hope that helps in your understanding of repenting from an adulterous remarriage. Repentance=forsaking, the same exact thing that is required of all illicit relationships----deemed such by the Lord.

Comment/question
I pray for marriages all the time. I would never pray that a person who is in their second marriage get divorced because their previous spouse is still living. I certainly hope that no one else would be praying for a divorce under those circumstances either.
Response
I pray for repentance. That is the Lord's heart on the matter. I personally know MANY people who are crying out to the Lord on behalf of a covenant spouse who has gone off with another----into extramarital adultery or through remarriage adultery. Unless you can show how the 2nd marriage dissolves the first in the LORD'S sight (and believe me, I've tried), then I will continue to stand with those brothers and sisters who pray for their marriages to be reconciled and for the partner in adultery to have their eyes open to taking another's spouse. This husband and wife swapping that is going on grieves the Lord---ESPECIALLY among those who name the name of Christ! The thing is that many just cannot see it for what it is..............and they won't unless they truly seek the Lord's heart and Word.

Comment/question
If repentance is a change of mind then why would one disregard the only visible ground for divorce and divorce as a matter of repentance…wouldn’t the desire to forsake it also apply to divorcing for reasons other than what specifically applied to divorce?

Whereas “if” the second marriage was truly faithful then the concept to say the least and to apply a divorce obviously not fulfilled in the Law of Christ... that the Lord may or may not bless, seems to shoot a major hole in the discipline of biblical obedience.
Response
If the second "marriage" is a relationship that is NOT joined by God, evidenced by Him calling it adultery, then forsaking it is not "divorcing" what God joined together. It is an act of forsaking(repenting of) an adulterous union. How can an adulterous union be considered a "faithful" union when the very act of joining together is considered being UNFAITHFUL(to the covenant--the first one) in the Lord's eyes?

Comment/question
But it is a good idea to love others like Jesus did. If you are going to tell someone that they are living wrongly, you should - like Jesus did - reach out and help them up out of the pit.
Response
What did Jesus do for the woman at the well? He clearly made it known to her that her present living situation was sin. Did He provide for her tangible needs so she would then be able to forsake her sin or did He offer LIFE through Him? If one truly desires and receives the LIVING water, they CAN forsake sin..........and their dependence will be on Jesus, not on man------though many times the Lord uses man to provide our needs.

Jesus said "whosoever will not forsake mother, father, spouses, children for His sake, could not be His disciple"---- a radical example. This example was necessary to show us that the PULL to be or remain disobedient will be very strong (using family ties, for instance-----the strongest earthly ties we have) and yet, if we desire HIM above all, we must resist that pull and be obedient instead------otherwise we prove we love this life more than Him.

"whosoever will save his life, will lose it............... and whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall save it".................

Waiting on man to provide our needs before we do what's right in God's sight, is a belief that is not founded on anything in God's Word. We need to do what's right and believe the Lord will provide. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and THEN all these things shall be added unto you".............The Lord is Good and Faithful to those who belong to Him.

Comment/question
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." = agreement, there is no agreement in 100 foreskins! Ouch!
But then again Saul was a bit crazy!

In the verse above and in the context of 2Sa. 3 we can see why David called for his wife, and it was not for love…

God joins, or love joins two as one, and if we minus 1 from the equation then it is not joined by God.
Response
Can you show me biblically where it takes "eros" love to make one married? Many people around the world, in your eyes, because they did not marry in "eros", are not joined by God?????..............

.

Comment/question
I know you are not implying that God cannot be glorified if we are happy. Granted, the misused phrase "But God would want us to be happy" is just a foolish excuse. I do not believe, however, that He would want us to be unhappy the rest of our lives. The Joy of the Lord is our Strength, after all.

Life is also not fair, but God is all about redemption. It seems contrary to His nature to tie someone down for more than a season because of someone else's refusal to come to him
Response
Yes, and it also "seems" unfair that we have brothers and sisters who are being persecuted/raped/tortured all over this world...............yet, in their sufferings they ARE glorifying the Lord as they remain obedient. Jesus did not tell us we would have happiness, nor do we deserve it in this lifetime, He said we would have trouble. If we find happiness in this life, great. However, what you said above is TRUTH-----the JOY of the LORD is our strength. Notice the scriptures do not say, "happiness in life is our strength"................The joy of the Lord and happiness are two different things. One is based upon trust/faith, the other is based upon circumstance.........one endures through all trials, the other endures only while things are "good"............

Comment/question
Your missing it here. If I enter into a contract which states I can only work for ABC Corp Jan-Mar and then I enter into a contract with DEF Corp working for them Jan-Mar, I am violating my first contract with ABC Corp. The second one is illegal because the first one was never dissolved. I'm in breach of contract. If I then speak to ABC Corp. and they release me from my contract, I could stay with DEF Corp. - no penalty but I must be released from the first in order to fulfill the agreement within the second.
Response
You're missing the point. This is not a business transaction between two entities. This is a covenant between two with a THIRD party acting as the "sealer" of the covenant. Not only that, but the third party is the originator of the covenant and is also the author of it's terms. God, is this "third party". He not only created the covenant, but specified its terms.

Comment/question
 If the lord has given a word or has revealed to ones spirit a conviction to stay married then one should stay married which is translated as a righteous judgement. and the other is condemnation for disobedience.

 If the Lord has given the right to divorce then one should divorce, which is translated as a righteous judgement. and the other is condemnation for disobedience.

And if the Lord has given the word and one is free to marry again, then one should consider it for his purposes.
Response
If one has a "word" from God and that "word" does not line up with His WORD, then we need to ask ourselves what the source of this "word" is...................if it is opposed to His WORD, then it either came from the flesh or from the devil.............

Comment/question
My personal opinion is He will bless this reunion (to first covenant spouse) as it was never His intention for it to end. Just my thoughts...
Response
I think it is MUCH more than that----I mean, His "intention". Paul taught that a marriage (a covenant marriage, meaning one joined by God), does NOT end until the death of one of them. It is not only God's intention it does not end, it is a fact it does not end. Many will "intermingle" this ONE FLESH God joined, but they cannot "unscramble" what God put together. I find it ironic that there are those who say a second marriage cannot be "unscrambled"----the ones the Lord DID not join together, but instead calls adultery, yet they feel that the marriage God DID join together can be unscrambled.......Not to be sarcastic, but I really would like that logic explained to me.........
Comment/question
I simply just wanted to know is it "ok" in God's eyes if such happens? If the believing spouse didnt fully understand the scriptures as far as what it said on divorce and remarriage and remarries a 2nd husband, if that marriage ends too and the 1st spouse realizes what they did and wants to try to reconsile with the 1st husband is it ok in God's eyes? Especially if there is still love there between both people? Sometimes we are too young to understand the graveness of our actions... I feel God is graitious to give us a 2nd chance. Real love that never ends is rare today-people so much have the mind set that "if I dont like it I can leave". We fall "in and out of love" to quickly. When you love someone thru "thick & thin" it says alot. I just am seeking God's word on this issue.
Response
Again, I understand what you're saying, but the "big picture" is this: whether feelings of love are there or not, God has joined a COVENANT husband and wife Til death. If the "feelings" of love/passion return, so much the better, but that is not the deciding factor on which marriages God sees as lawful.

Paul has said in such cases where a woman feels the need to depart(or was forced to depart---we don't know for sure), she is to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled to her husband. The bond is still there and will endure until one of them passes away (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). If one of the spouses is still living, in GOD'S eyes the bond is unbroken.........whether one is living in adultery with another or not, the ORIGINAL covenant marriage endures. What the "law of the land" says to the contrary does not matter when God says otherwise. But, as I said earlier, I do believe getting that piece of paper civilly is a good thing to do----because of how OTHERS view your situation that do not know the circumstances.

Comment/question
I noticed there's 128 pages on this thread. It's a pretty hotly debated topic.
Response
Yes, and the reason is because divorce/remarriage affects so many today. There is much brokenness and it is only increasing, not decreasing...........I think it's a clear picture that we have moved far away from the Lord and cannot/are not able to discern REAL Godly love and how it is manifested within us and towards others.

Comment/question
How about a rephrasing?

Real kingdom rewards come from obedience to God, not self-sacrifice to the idol of self-righteousness.
Response
You're correct. Real kingdom rewards come from obedience...........we have been called to "endure", no? Would enduring be obedience or would lack of enduring be disobedience? I think self-righteousness is not at issue here at all as well all know how the Lord views that.
Comment/question
Endure in Christ, not in our works
Response
Yes, you are correct. If we ENDURE we WILL DO the works of Christ. Would the works of Christ be to forsake one caught in sin PERMANENTLY and then move on to another relationship and family?
Comment/question
If we find ourselves bound in business to a corrupt partner, do we endure it?
Response
Does God make a person ONE FLESH with a business partner?
Comment/question
If we find a brother in unrepentant sin, do we endure him in our fellowship?
Response
Scripture teaches what to do with a "brother" who is in unrepentant sin in regards to the ASSEMBLY. Does the Word of God say to desert one's spouse----the one God joins together as ONE FLESH? In regards to believers married to Unbelievers, is not the unbeliever in UNREPENTANT sin merely by the fact that they are NOT believers? Does scripture teach it ok then to forsake the unbeliever? I think you know the answer to that.

I think you also know that when it comes to "shunning" it is for the purpose of RESTORATION, not for permanent ejection. Our hearts are ALWAYS to be towards restoration as that is our calling as MINISTERS OF RECONCILIATION.............unless one really is not a minister of reconciliation..........
Comment/question
You try over and over to appeal to a humanist perspective and time and time again you miss the God perspective.

Let's go back to the beginning, again. Your marriage is no salvific. It is not even divine. It is not even going to last beyond this life. That is why your attempts at parallels with the eternal fail. Marriage is temporal, an aspect of this world that is not needed in heaven.
Response
I think you have a misunderstanding of humanism. My view is far from humanistic as it puts GOD above man and God's commands above human comfort/desire. God should not be placed at a level of serving human beings in their wants desires. The "God wants us to be happy"........even if we disobey Him to achieve that.............is humanistic. That is what I read every day on this forum by many posters..........and that is very sad. That is NOT the God of the Bible and not the Creator of the heavens and the Earth........and that is NOT the King will sit and judge ALL the living and the dead.

On another note, I have never once stated that marriage is ETERNAL. I believe it is completely temporal. Made for man while man is on the earth. Marriage does not save, nor have the power to. Only Jesus has the power to save. However, Jesus did give instructions on the use of marriage and what HE acknowledges as REAL marriage----those marriages that are joined by Him. He also speaks on those marriages that are adultery to Him. It is not something we can or should "skip over" to avoid discomfort.
Comment/question
Now in regards to the immoral person cast out of the fellowship, note there is nothing about him ever returning to the fellowship. He is to be delivered to satan and ultimately God will decide his fate.

There are times to endure pain and stick with something. There are times to endure pain and cut off the part of the body that causes harm to the rest of the body. Like the immoral man in Paul's instruction,
Response
II Thess. 3:14-15----And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, NOTE that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him NOT as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

II Tim. 2:24-26----The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to (E)the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

James 5:19-20-----My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

The above passages ARE the heart of God in regards to those who go astray..........not only towards the "brethren", but especially towards the ONE God has joined one to in marriage. Neuron, you can try as you might to discount that this is the Lord's heart towards the wayward, but you will be hard pressed to prove your point with scripture.
Comment/question
sometimes it is a spouse. Sometimes they have to be removed to protect the body and in HOPE that one day God will turn them around. But it is not our job to do God's job. So we go on about the Lord's business. Giving and receiving in marriage, having kids, raising families, and we allow God to do His job in thankfulness that He provides for us.
Response
See, you are looking at marriage with the eyes of "flesh".........and as long as you do, you will not get it, (name deleted). You say that it is not "our" job in regards to helping our spouses in regards to sin. It IS our job. It is our job to be a LIGHT to them..........to intercede for them. What God has NOT called us to do, is desert them and instead, pick up another wife/husband.........UNTIL THEY do something we just cannot handle...........and the cycle goes on and on.

Do you not see why this mentality is about as far from God and His heart as it gets? Don't you comprehend how our lack of "abiding in Jesus" towards our loved ones will affect OUR CHILDREN in their beliefs about the Lord and just what faithfulness really consists of? This generation is teaching our children that OUR faithfulness is purely situational and conditional. We will only do something if someone else does something for us................when WE are benefited THEN we will benefit others.

Oh what a mess this mindset has caused  ..............and our actions in the Western Church has made us lose all credibility in regards to the faithfulness issue. We tell people that it is never to late to come to God, yet by our very lives, we are living a lie. We tell people who offend us-----"it's too late.............you've done too much damage"...................yet, out of the other side of our mouth we tell those who are LOST, "Hey, it's never to late come to the Lord. If your heart is full of repentance, He will forgive you and accept you into His bosom---no matter what you've done".............

Comment/question
Now to answer your question which had nothing to do with my statement.

How can an unbeliever and a believer be considered one in the sight of God?

Because God requires it of the believer. That is shown in 1 Cor 7:12

1 Corinthians 7:12

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.

One or not? I let the people reading this decide for themselves. I think it is clear in all of Scripture that when you "bind" yourself to another person, you are partaking of their problems. And God will hold us to our vows, even to the unbelievers of the world.

If you believe different from that, please read the Scriptures.
Response
It is not I who believes differently, but you, (name deleted). I KNOW that an UNGODLY person and a Saved person can be ONE because I Cor. 7:13-16 says so. You seems to think that a Godly and Ungodly cannot be ONE due to your interpretation of I Cor. 5:13.

I provided the scripture in II Thess. 3 in which, though a brother is "cut off" so to speak, he is STILL to be considered a "brother"...........now, if I were to apply that to a spouse, would it be different?
Comment/question
God takes it seriously. So when you say "yes" to that person and marry them, it does not matter who is or who is not a believer, God holds you to your vow for that covenant. And when one person breaks the covenant and refuses to stop, God punishes them for that infraction. And one of the consequences of breaking their vows and the marriage covenant is that they are removed from that relationship through divorce.
Response
Hmm.........if this is the case, then why are not ALL offenders removed from the marriage---if that is a punishment for sin? Also, what if an adulterer is the one who files for divorce and the "innocent" does not want the divorce? What if the "innocent" one stands for the rest of their life for their marriage to be restored? Does God honor that divorce as dissolving the marriage? What scripture would you provide that shows the adulterer is free from their spouse and that the covenant is dissolved?
Comment/question
Yes, when called for to remove the immoral one from the family relationship and to hand them over to satan so that God may save them ultimately.

Yes, permanently. And that my friends, is Scripturally supportable.
Response
So, if your child gets into immorality, in whatever form, you are to cast them out of your house and disown them.............even though they repent some day, you will never again receive them as your child?

Comment/question
When obedience to God requires complete separation of an immoral believer from the body, as instructed by Paul, your logic would be in conflict with that Scriptural truth and say "keep the immoral person in your midst because you must endure".
Response
Absolutely, Paul did teach that in I Cor. 5. Yet, it seems to me you forget one important aspect of "separation"..........it is not to sever completely and permanently..........it is to cause REPENTANCE so the person separated can then come back into the Body and once again be one. The "cut and dump" mentality is not having the mind of Christ................that is not what He would do..........and you know what? This just doesn't have to do with immorality. There are MANY sins Paul lists there that should be cause of breaking fellowship. Let me ask you this: If someone WERE guilty of such sins and you stopped hanging around them, if they truly repented, would you again be friends with them? If you say "yes", why then do you think a marital relationship, which the Lord spoke as representing Him and the Church, cannot be mended, but MUST be trashed?
Comment/question
In parallel, when obedience to God requires complete divorce from an immoral believer (like the separation of one person from the body of believers), that immoral person is no longer one with the other (like the immoral person is no longer in unity with the body of believers). That person may wander for years, or forever, and may or may not wind up back with the original person. Many times, not.
Response
Ah, if you are saying this in regards to marriage, I would like you to explain how an unbeliever and a believer can be considered ONE in the sight of God, then (I Cor. 7:13-15)?

Comment/question
Ok... scriptures...

I will post them and then we can discuss them one by one...
Matthew 22:23-33
23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?" 29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
Response
That passage shows that the woman LEGALLY married all men...........and what the Lord also states is that DEATH severs the marital relationship..........on earth as well as in heaven.

Psalms 146:5-10
5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God, 6 the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them-- the Lord, who remains faithful forever. 7 He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free, 8 the Lord gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous. 9 The Lord watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked. 10 The Lord reigns forever, your God, O Zion, for all generations. Praise the Lord.
Response
The Lord loves the righteous and will take care of them............it doesn't say He will break His own moral law to provide for them. As I said, one doesn't NEED adultery. One DOES need FOOD.

Deuteronomy 10:12-22
observe the Lord's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? 14
He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. 20 Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name.
Response
Great passage. Calls for obedience..........tells of the great love and provision (FOOD/CLOTHING) of the Lord............tells how we are to LOVE those who are "alien"/aka SINNERS, BECAUSE were were once "alien"/aka SINNERS

Jeremiah 3:6-11
6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the Lord. 11 The Lord said to me, "Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah.
Response
Another great passage.......it shows that the FOLLOWERS of sin who have already seen God's hand deal and then go ahead and SIN ANYWAYS, will receive more judgment from the Lord (viewed as MORE guilty). I noticed you did not post the other part of this passage: "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED TO YOU............" Jer. 3:14 Notice the Lord says this AFTER He has given a "bill of divorce"..............a bill many of you say DISSOLVES a marriage. Is the Lord confused about the power of a "bill of divorcement" ..............or are we?

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
Response
A man has found something "detestable" about his wife. He writes her a bill of divorcement and sends her out of the house. Then she becomes another man's wife-------if he "hates" her, he can then give her a bill of divorcement......whether she is divorced or widowed she cannot become the 1st husband's wife again. Why is the question? Is it because he took his marriage so lightly that he is being punished by putting her away and then desiring to get her back again?

Was it that she was "defiled"? How was she defiled?

Was God confused when He spoke Jer. 3 when He referenced Deut. 24? Taking back a "defiled" thing was "good to God? Can we rightly apply Deut. 24 to Jesus' teachings that remarriage WITH a divorce is STILL adultery?

Corinthians 7:10-16
Response
Wives, if you depart, you are to remain UNMARRIED Or be reconciled to your husbands (obviously there will be cases where a BELIEVING husband and BELIEVING wife will not be reconciled). This, Paul makes very clear, is a DIRECT command from the LORD. Concerning believer/unbeliever, never does Paul give an inkling that a believer is free to remarry again.........only that they are not bound to SERVE the other spouse.

Corinthians 7:24 So, brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.
Response
This is not speaking about illicit relationships............."if you are in adultery, stay in adultery.........if you are fornicating, remain fornicating...........that is the condition in which you were called, remain in it".............surely no one would even suggest this is what Paul meant.

Corinthians

25 Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26 I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.
Response
EXCELLENT translation, (name deleted). For that clears up COMPLETELY what the meaning is there. BETROTHED...............BETROTHED

NOT divorced, as many would like Paul to have meant.

Matthew 19:3-9
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Response
For one thing, the Greek does not say "marital unfaithfulness"...........it says, "fornication". I think we have debated this passage into the dirt. I will say that it's interesting to note the part above I have highlighted...........the Pharisees didn't just address divorce for ANY cause, they also said EVERY cause.........and after that Jesus said that in the beginning it was not so.........when He joins two, they are no longer two, but are now ONE...............

Mark 10:1-12
1 Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them. 2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 "What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6 "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
Response
Still comes back to the same thing..........Moses "permitted" divorce. Why? Because men's hearts were hard. Period. There was no divorce for Adultery. There was only STONING...........and ultimately, Jesus spoke again and again how those who divorce and remarry commit adultery by doing so.

Comment/question
I have some more heart of God for you.

2 Peter 2:12-22

12 These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. 13 Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception[e] even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. 14 They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. 15 They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor,[f] who loved to earn money by doing wrong. 16 But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

17 These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. 18 They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. 19 They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. 20 And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”
Response
Taken IN CONTEXT, these passages speak about those false teachers who LEAD others into sin, because they too are corrupted and entangled themselves in sin.

My heart is to see people FREE from the sin of adultery............a sin many do not even know they are entangled in because this sin has become acceptable in today's church and God's Word is not taught line by line concerning this issue of adulterous remarriage. You are promising people "freedom"...........freedom to do what exactly----to commit what Jesus calls adultery? Meditate on those verses you posted to me, please.............

Comment/question
And please post the Scriptures where Christ said "this is an adulterous marriage". What Christ said was that those that lust commit adultery, and those that commit marital unfaithfulness are adulterers, and He said that unless you have a valid justification for divorce, then those who remarry are adulterers.The "adulterous marriage" concept is constructed by humans and is not Scriptural.
Response
You just said there was a group of individuals who are ADULTERERS if they remarry. You see it just as plainly as I do, though you think there are some exceptions allowable. The thing is that in Rom. 7:2-3 when Paul says the woman SHALL BE CALLED, it is ongoing, present tense in the Greek. Her "act" of remarriage was not the sin of adultery------it is the relationship with the other man while her husband is still alive that makes her an adulteress. If she were to stop that relationship, she would NOT be called an adulteress.

Comment/question
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

These verses are true....

Nothing that we can do can remove us from God's hand.

And if we seek and follow what God has for us - He will not lead us astray.

Some have been led by GOD to the position they are in. They sought God ALL OF THE WAY. He directed their steps and they are at peace in their position.

God will not give someone a stone when they ask for bread.

God did not lead someone to a marriage after divorce if it would separate them from Him.

God is good - all the time and in all things.

He did allow divorce - for a very specific exception. He does allow marriage after divorce for very specific occasions...

He has to the directing of the steps... And He has.
Response
But (name deleted), the Lord does not lead His children in all different directions when it comes to His moral laws. If He reveals to some that they are in fact in adulterous remarriages, because they have a living spouse, He will not also direct some to take other's spouses and children as their own..........and vice versa.

This is not about a job choice, a location of where to live, etc............this is about a relationship the Lord said would endure until death. This is also about relationships that HE said were adulterous. Would He lead some into adultery and some away from it? I do not think so. We are led astray when we follow our "hearts" and not the voice of the Lord. Many times what He calls us to do is NOT what we want to do. What we all want is a stable, loving, family. Many times that is not what has been allowed into our lives...............and there is a reason..........a KINGDOM reason and purpose, but many cannot seem to look beyond the temporal.
Comment/question
He wouldn't lead them into adultery - BECAUSE ITS NOT ADULTERY!

There is a valid exception and case for marriage after a divorce....
Response
I personally know people who DID believe God brought them together........and one couple comes to mind right now. He was a Pentecostal preacher. He was divorced as was his second wife. They believed with all their heart that God had brought them together and they were married for 10 years----happily.........until one day when they went out for a walk and BOTH of them started discussing the scriptures on divorce/remarriage. Both of them started to feel "troubled".........then they went to the Lord in prayer and study of His Word............ BOTH of them were led to repent of their adulterous (ongoing adultery) marriage. They have since forsaken their relationship.

Did they believe when they met and married that they were hearing the "voice of the Lord"? Absolutely. Do they now believe that? No, they do not. AT the time, they WANTED to marry again, saw many others doing it and "felt" that they were supposed to be together. Where do you believe their deception is-----what they first heard.............or what they later heard?

Someone is wrong.

Comment/question
Not all who wait will ever see a spouse return. Not all who divorce will remain so with each other. And also one must admit that not all sinful spouses that were departed from will ever care if the other waits. Because of this variability and because we do not know the future nor the hearts of others, we must be careful to listen to God and follow His leading us. And because God knows already what the other spouse will do, He at times will lead the "waiting" spouse away from waiting.
Response
Whether or not one "returns" does not/should not affect one's obedience to the Lord and faithfulness to the covenant they entered into.

Comment/question
Here is the article...

Thou Shalt Interfere in Thy Neighbor’s Marriage..

.

Divorce is selfish and harmful, and it’s our duty not to go along with it.
Response
I have often thought of this: If everyone actually took to heart what the Lord says, "Whosoever marries one who is divorced commits adultery"...............

Most all marriages WOULD be restored. If there was no one to take the divorced persons, the natural desire to have family and such would be a motivating factor on healing your OWN family......

Actually it used to be "taboo" to marry a divorced person.......but now, no longer, hence the horrible destruction in families we are now seeing..........

Comment/question
Marriage is allegorically representative of our relationship to our Lord.
Within that relationship with Him we can find ourselves cast out of that covenant by apostating ourselves from it/Him.
Adultery is the same sin against the marriage covenant, apostasy, and why this particular crime is so heinous within a marraige.
Response
For some who struggle with a point such as this I would ask you to ponder this:

If adultery within a marriage is likened to our relationship with Christ and the "apostasy" as worded such by a certain poster, is something impossible to redeem oneself from, where do we see this in scripture (regarding adultery being an unredeemable offense)?

Also, why are SOME marriage partners NOT viewed as "apostates" in the marriage, but as a partner in life who has gone astray and needs intercession? How is it that SOME are forgiven, whether reconciled or not reconciled----and the "offended" standing in prayer interceding for their spouse?

When Jesus came upon the woman caught in adultery, He allowed her to go----- with the admonishment to quit committing adultery. He did not say, "now you are dead in my sight----you are an apostate, unable to be redeemed"........

No, He gave her the ability to forsake her sin. He gave her TIME..........HE is our example. The hardhearted say, "I will not restore myself to that harlot"...........those filled with the Spirit of Christ say, "I love her with a love that is eternal, a love that desires her best, not mine".........This is the mind/heart of Christ.

Will He judge adulterers? Yes, but it is not yet that time(II Pet. 3:9)............yet, NOW WE stone the adulterers/adulteresses and call them apostates?????.....Hmm.........not scriptural.

It is ironic that one here will castigate others who view remarriage as adultery, yet the same one STANDS firmly in the right to toss out one who commits adultery.......and seems to get some justification because she STILL is in bondage to sin.

There is a big difference in our viewpoints on adultery...........

I hold that repentance needs to be sought for ALL forms of adultery, not just "some" sins........and that ALL forms of adultery can be forgiven by the Lord while their is still breath in the Body or before the coming of Jesus in Glory. The Lord desires ALL to come to repentance, not willing that ANY should perish.

Comment/question
It's easy to point out the problems, what solutions do you offer?
Response
The solution is to FOLLOW the LORD, period. That may sound too simplistic, but it is truth. No matter what your wife did/still does, does not change the fact that in God's sight you both are still bound to each other----until death. Scripture does not teach that divorce severs the bond that God joins together---------lest the one "unmarried" in I Cor. 7:10-11 COULD be married to another. That is not the case. She is admonished BY THE LORD to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled. It is not easy, but following the Lord and doing things HIS way is the best and you will reap HIS perfect peace in your life----something many do not have, though they PROCLAIM from the housetops that they DO have His peace. If one truly has it, it is seen----without word. Blessings brother.

Comment/question
John MacArthur Link: What's your view of divorce and remarriage? (Link Deleted)
Response
John MacArthur is much farther from the truth than John Piper is.........Piper is "almost" there. Though he believes that NOTHING outside of death can dissolve what God joined together, he believes that God's grace allows for people to live in adulterous marriages (this is EXACTLY what I was told by a person I was corresponding with in his ministry who answers mail for Pastor Piper). I haven't been able to figure out how God's Grace covers that sin, but will not allow other sexually immoral relationships to continue......

Comment/question
I pose this question how can we lead souls to christ when our own lives are so messed up.......My house is not in order........and the more i work to get it back in order more problems come.
Response
I am not allowed to respond directly to your own personal situation (per forum rules), but I will speak generally here and I hope that helps you.

If one is in a covenant marriage (first time marrieds/widowers married, etc), and one partner has sought a civil divorce, that does not change how GOD views the couple. They are STILL bound in His sight until one passes from this life (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). The one who "departs" is in sin for doing so, if the other person has repented from any form of sin. Paul gives the command from the Lord that any woman who departs from her husband MUST remain UNMARRIED (no remarriage allowed) OR she is to reconcile with her husband. If she disobeys and marries again, she will be called an adulteress while her husband lives (Rom. 7:2-3). Paul never gives any inkling that ANY woman who is a believer is entitled to seek another husband after she has departed. AND Paul never gives an inkling that ANY believing husband has the "right" to divorce his wife. However, He does in 2 different teachings to 2 different churches, bring forth the teaching that marriage is for LIFE and that only the death of a spouse will free the other to marry again.

As to how to be a witness in a case where one has been deserted? The only thing I can share is what the Lord admonishes: "seek ye first the kingdom of God, THEN all these things will be added unto you"............When we seek the kingdom, we are seeking what GOD desires in our lives.........and that usually comes in the form of SERVING OTHERS and taking the focus off of our own problems in life. When we do this, we WILL bring Glory to His name and we WILL be alight that shines for the kingdom of God..................and others WILL say, "wow, look at all he/she is going through and look at the strength they have and the wonderful attitude"..........but we cannot have this "light" if we focus on self and do not stay close to the Lord, asking HIM to empower us to love---not only the wayward spouse, but ALL those whom He has brought into our path (neighbors, family, employers, employees, etc). I know that is a hard thing, but if Christ dwells within us, we CAN walk this time of trouble out---- AND if a wayward wife/husband sees the other walking in VICTORY, they WILL notice and be drawn to them when the Lord has worked in them what He desires to work. Blessings in Jesus!

Comment/question
Nowhere do I see that a Christian has any call or right to put a burden of "waiting" onto another Christian with claims that if they only wait long enough and patiently enough, then the errant spouse will return. I am speaking of situations that are obviously wrong here, such as where adultery has occurred. The only exhortation Christians should utter is to encourage these separated spouses to follow God with their whole heart, trusting God that He will bring about what He desires, for we know clearly that God only has the very best plan in mind. Obviously if someone is trying to follow God with their whole heart, the rest of us can trust that God is quite capable of guiding that person.
Response
I agree with this wholeheartedly if what you mean above (where I highlighted), the following is according to God's Word and NOT to some inner voice which is in opposition to God's Word or if one believes "peace" is always an indicator of being in the will of God. There is a "false" peace God's Word speaks about...........and one can be in sin and feel a "peace", but it not be from the Lord----that's why being obedient to the Word of the Lord is utmost in importance. I also agree that NONE of us should ever promise a waiting spouse that their wayward spouse will come home. No matter what a spouse may do, "waiting" is because the Lord says to do it.........and that should be good enough for a believer (obedience without temporal reward, I mean).

Comment/question
God's plan is that marriage is 2 for life, but just as sin entered into the garden, we are still imperfect.

God wants us to seek Him and follow His direction. For some that is to allow the unrepentant adulterous spouse to go... some wait for return and that is good, but some are released from the bonds (the release is from God) and are provided with a new life/marriage.
Response
We could say that about any sin we enter into............"we are imperfect", yet, is that an acceptable thing to the Lord? I don't believe so. If He states that a marriage IS for life, yet we say, "well, I'm just a sinner, MY marriage is/was NOT for life, I will instead get another marriage partner"..............is the Lord to cater to us and our disobedience, or are we to bow down to Him and honor HIS commands to us concerning the use of marriage as HE created it? In other words, if the Lord says a couple are joined for LIFE, who are we to say we are NOT joined to life, but free to be joined with another/others? This is the world's way of thinking, but should never be the follower of Christ's way of thinking.

Concerning the "waiting"..........I still am confused on how some can believe the Lord binds some together (leading some to wait/pray/stand in the gap) for some adulterous spouses, but He allows some to be "unbound" to seek another spouse. I cannot find any scripture which speaks of this. What you are saying in essense is that God frees SOME to enjoy life with another person while He makes others bound to their sinning spouse.............suffering without their life partner. It seems to me that this kind of reasoning goes against what some say, "God doesn't want man to be alone, therefore, He makes provisions for remarriage"............ Is God a respecter of persons in regards to the moral law?

For me, scripture clearly shows that we are to walk as Christ, if we truly belong to Him. He is no respecter of persons. He cares just as much about the wayward spouses as He does for the one who is trying to be a faithful, loving spouse. It seems to me that many of the proponents of D/R focus on only ONE of the spouses in regards to the Love of Christ, believing it ok to forsake the sinning one because they were forsaken or in some cases, not forsaken, but severely disappointed in their marrige partner..........yet Jesus many times speaks of how we are to treat those who are against us, treat us in an ill manner,etc...............Forsaking them----especially the one God joins us to is not found in scripture. Even when others are unfaithful, we are to remain faithful----as Jesus is faithful..........

"for it is no longer I that live, but Christ who lives within me"................it is a verse planted firmly into my spirit.........especially needed when I am wanting self to rise to the top.

Comment/question
One must choose to come and be cleansed in the Blood of Christ to be repented thereof.
Response
The "fruit" of true repentance is the ACTION shown. If one is in an adulterous relationship (or any other illicit relationship), the FRUIT of repentance would be the forsaking of that illicit relationship. There is NO other way.........otherwise, ALL can continue in their sin and be AOK with the Lord. Scripture teaches otherwise. Jesus Himself said that those who LOVE Him will obey Him, they will LOSE their life for Him, not seek to "save" their life. If one does seek to save their life(continue on their own path), they will lose it in the end.

I also want to AMEN the statement that said, "The main thing is the plain thing. The plain thing is the main thing. "

To go all around what is PLAIN, is to "do what is right in one's own sight"...........a very dangerous thing not only for one's own eternal future, but in regards to teaching others to sin (or remain in it) as well. Remember, scripture clearly teaches that the false prophets are those who say others have "peace" with God when they do not............they are the ear ticklers who do not call people from their sin, but encourage them to remain in their sin, saying "all is well with your soul"................What saith the Lord? "Depart from me you workers of iniquity (lawlessness)".............
Comment/question
Fruit generally comes in time which is also a harvest; time comes after sowing which begins with plowing,

So I can not see where this action is a fruit of repentance, because it is the HS that leads or draws one to Christ… according to the will of the Father …while we are still sinners, John 6:44,

Instant repentance is a thing of the 21st century… like instant oatmeal.
Response
Ah, I never said anything about "instant" repentance as far as forsaking a sin goes. None of us has ALL of our sins revealed the very moment we come to saving faith in Jesus.........However, we DO know we are sinners in need of God's Grace and we SEE our wretchedness before a Holy God. This I truly do believe.

THEN, as we grow in Him, He reveals more and more of our sin.............when it is revealed as sin to us, our RESPONSE to that sin (past or ongoing) is to forsake that sin, if our repentance is truly genuine.

To do the "right" thing is a good thing, whether we understand all or not, but the BEST thing, the thing which is approved by God is DOING the right thing when the WRONG has been revealed as such............matter of fact, I will go so far as say, it is something that a TRUE born again believer will DESIRE to do----for the God who gave all for them.
Comment/question
I’ll sup with you until the revelation comes, and Jesus would do no less for another…

All He wants from us is to hear our admittance.
Response
He not only wants to hear out admittance (that we see our sin as He does), but He wants to SEE our QUITING of the sin as well. If we are stealing, we steal no more (because we have the revelation that Theft is sin and it grieves the Lord AND us). Many can "admit" they sinned(by seeing it in the Word), but they are not at the point where sin GRIEVES THEM, so they quit it---the reality of their sin and it's effects on the kingdom are not yet internalized.

It is ONLY when we have THAT revelation/grieving that one will be empowered to quit whatever sin they are in bondage to.............THEN they will have no condemnation because they are not only not "thinking" like the flesh, but they are not WALKING(outward manifestation) in the flesh. Instead, they are walking in agreement with Christ (in the Spirit).

Comment/question
So, if a man (or woman) is reading these scriptures and reading what some are posting about divorce and he is lusting after another woman who is not his wife, then it appears that he would be better off killing her husband so he can have her? Because her getting a divorce and him marrying her would be even MORE wrong, right?

If you think that idea is crazy, I can assure you it is not. This happened in a small town because the man was confused by people in his church telling him the very idea that "if someone divorces and remarries they will be living in sin the rest of their life." He decided to kill his current wife so he could marry his mistress. This would eliminate the idea that he would be living in sin the rest of his life with his new wife, right? As long as he's sorry later for killing his wife, right?
Response
The instance you gave, did the man think MURDER was ok with the Lord? Even if he did marry the other woman because according to God's Word his wife was dead and he is free, if he never repents from the murder, he will die a murderer.........and scripture teaches that just as adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God, neither will murderers............

Comment/question
That's one of the things I've always felt I don't understand- So if I'm divorced and I remarry, it is an adulterous marriage, but if my ex-husband dies it suddenly becomes a non adulterous marriage?
Response
Many do not think the marriage would be lawful..........since the original vows were not lawfully taken in the sight of God. In other words, because God still saw the original couple married, the second marriage was nothing short of extra-marital adultery sanctioned by the state. When the first spouse dies, unless they take new vows, they will be fornicating (having sex outside of marriage).

Some however, do believe that the bond is broken and the second couple lawfully married in God's sight as well because they are viewed by the State as married and since both are now free, they are bound until death.

Personally, if I were in that situation and had any worries about it, I would renew my vows before the Lord and repent of my previous adultery while my covenant spouse was living.

Comment/question
Another thought to think about is that in Matthew 4, Jesus was tempted by Satan. Everyone should remember that Satan knows scripture also. Think about that for a moment. Satan knows scripture very well. Probably better than MOST of us. So, don't you think that on a regular basis he takes what you think you know and twists it to cause dissention, pain, offenses, etc amoung Christ's followers? If Satan can keep each of us judging one another and bashing each other over the heads with our "knowledge" of the scriptures AND beating each other down instead of loving one another then he's winning, isn't he?
Response
Yes, I agree that Satan IS using our differences to cause even more destruction. It's up to each one of us to handle our differences in a Godly fashion, however. We must acknowledge though, r, the Word of God tells us that lack of knowledge causes us to perish. Peter teaches in II Pet. 3:9, that the Lord is longsuffering towards us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all will come to eternal life. Paul teaches that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. It seems to me that the Lord DESIRES us to KNOW HIM and HIS WORD, so we don't perish. It is not His desire that adulterers perish, but that they come to repentance----irregardless of whether their adultery is extra-marital or remarital.

The truth is that we should be spurring each other on to get into His Word and see if what we are being taught is TRUE, or is it a seed of destruction that the enemy brought into the Church. I believe the enemy is taking great joy that we are enabling him to victory on destroying covenant marriage. We are saying that what the Lord speaks is just His "desire" in regards to marriage, but since we are sinful beings, He makes allowances and allows us to enter into adulterous unions..............and stay in them. If one reads only this passage, how could they EVER come to such a conclusion: Lk. 16:16-18.
Comment/question
Interpretation of all scriptures needs to be taken VERY seriously. Don't just read a couple verses and believe that that is all there is to it. Satan is there every step of the way also, trying to get you to misinterpret what you are reading.
Response
I agree with that. Those who uplift marriage while one already has a covenant spouse are relying on 1, possibly 2 passages. All the other passages dealing with marriage speak directly AGAINST marrying until a covenant spouse has died---otherwise they enter into an adulterous union (because they are already married in God's sight). Also, when reading/studying/praying over NT passages, we can also see that we are called to a different standard---we are called to die to SELF to allow Christ to live through us. Does anyone really believe Jesus would permanently abandon a spouse who is lost in their sin, so He can be joined with another? Does anyone discount that God likens His relationship with the Church to a covenant marriage joined by Him---where one man and one woman are joined together for life?

Did Paul give a faulty/incomplete analogy concerning Jesus/Law when He used marriage as an example----Rom. 7:2-3)---teaching that not until DEATH can one be joined to another?

Comment/question
I can tell you that this is true for I have been there and God does take the bitter and turn it into sweet.. We cannot unsramble eggs.. But God can make the best eggs out of our scrambling.
Response
I find that "you can't unscramble eggs" comment VERY ironic. I have questioned a couple ministries about it (including Pastor MacArthur's) and they can't answer this question:

If you can't unscramble what God did NOT put together, how can one unscramble what God DID join together?
Comment/question
God can unscramble a first marriage if both parties are agreeable.
Response
Can you provide scripture to this effect? Does agreement in doing something make God's Word null and void? If a married couple agree to a swapping arrangement, is it not adultery to God, because they are in agreement to do such a thing?

In the same vein, if one of the persons is "standing" for their marriage to be restored AFTER the other marries again (commits adultery), they are NOT in agreement. Is the first marriage "unscrambled", and does God then join the second? Many things to think about that MacArthur does not properly/bibically address in his teachings on this issue.........

Comment/question
You spiritualise this matter beyond what God does, in that the man and woman promise each other to keep themselves for each other. God witnesses this promise between the two people and endorses their union with His blessing while they keep those promises.
Response
(name deleted), I realize you believe I spiritualize this topic. I did previously see things "somewhat" as you do.

I believe as I've sought the Lord on this issue, He has greatly opened up my eyes to not only what the written Word states, and where many Pastors are contradictory/hypocritical in their teachings/practices on this issue, but what is His very heart on this issue. The fact remains that many proponents of the "lawfulness" of remarriage while one has a living spouse cannot explain away the meaning of Rom. 7:2-3 though I've seen many "words" on it. Go through commentaries and see what you find. Either they gloss right over it(saying that this is not a teaching on marriage)or skip those verses entirely. Why is that?

The truth is that Paul was addressing CHRISTIANS, not Jews living under the law. He again spoke of the permanency of marriage in I Cor. 7:39----again, to a CHRISTIAN audience. After a full discourse on marriage, he never once mentions it to be ok to remarry while one had a living spouse. Even in I Cor. 7:15, we cannot find such an allowance, though many "infer" that is what Paul meant, though he used a different word for "bondage" than he used in his teachings on the marriage "bond".

Then we go to Herod/Herodias----she divorced her husband Philip (the historical account of that relationship can be found in the writings of Josephus). Her divorce did not dissolve her marriage to Philip. Her remarriage (adultery/incestual relationship) to Herod did not dissolve her marriage to Philip. John clearly states that Herod HAS Philip's wife. This aligns with Paul's teachings in Rom. 7:2-3, which states that if a woman marries another while her husband is living, she SHALL be called an adulteress. Herodias was Philip's wife, not Herod's wife---in spite of the divorce, in spite of the remarriage (adultery)-----which also lines up with Jesus' teachings that if one divorces and remarries they commit adultery or if one marries one divorced, they commit adultery (because the Lord has not "loosed" the bond between the lawful couple.

Comment/question
So a prostitute who has slept with 100s of men, if she later repents and becomes a Christian is free to marry. But a woman who has kept herself pure for her husband, and whose husband forces her to get a divorce against her wishes and remarries someone else, is not free to marry?

It makes no sense that God's grace and mercy would require that.
Response
You're looking at this as a "sexual" thing. Marriage is so much more than that to God. It is about a mutual promise/commitment. Marriage is a relationship that was created by God. He is so big a part of marriage that it is HE that joins the wife and husband, making them ONE Flesh in His sight. In illicit sexual relations, God does not take part/approve/etc. Man/woman, join themselves with each other IN SIN.

Marriage is not a sin to be repented of (lawful marriage that is joined by God, that is). However, illicit sexual behavior IS to be repented of. Just because one has illicit sexual relations before marriage, does not prohibit them from marriage, as they were NOT joined by God to another for life---they were sinning(Gomer and Rahab, for example). Blessings..........

Comment/question

I think that issues such as these will get more mileage, as our times become more and more lawless. Let us exhort one another to obey God by honoring His Word. He said if we love Him, we will obey Him.

Response
Yes, you are right.  As more and more people end up divorced, they have questions, as do those who watch people getting divorced. Many people wonder: "does God REALLY approve of this destruction to families, and if so, for what reasons does He approve? And, if one divorces can they then be free to seek another person in their life?" All very valid questions, and yes, though this thread has gone on and on, new people constantly are coming and seeking the answers, because, many do not see their churches' stance lining up with God's Word---on one or many different points.

Some just come to argue justification of divorce/remarriage and that is ok too. As the Lord says, "let us reason together"..............this is a topic that NEEDS to be reasoned, because reasoning in many churches is not allowed. I know, my last church would NOT dialogue about this issue. They put out a statement of belief, but told my husband and I they would NOT discuss it with us. Very sad, especially coming from a church that touts itself as a "nouthetic" counselling church.  We had very real concerns and those would not even be addressed and discussed in depth. That experience (by what we thought was a very biblically based, mature church) showed us just where the "church" as a whole is at.

Paul and Jesus both stated in the last days we would see much of what we are now seeing. Divorce and remarriage is only one example of man's departure from God's standards (though I believe it is the worst, as marriage is the biblical picture of Jesus' sacrificial love for those who will be saved). As the "world" sees more and more divorces/remarriages in the church occurring, they will understand less and less how Jesus loves.

Comment/question

What I'm putting forward is that perhaps your doctrine should be looked at again because it ignores many other Scriptures in the Bible in addition to well known and practiced Jewish principles.

Response
How does what Jesus said (through Paul) ignore other scriptures?? Which scriptures? As for Jewish principles, we as Christians are not to go by other "principles", but only by the Word of the Lord.

Comment/question

I believe anytime someone comes up with a doctrine which is at odds with what the original audience would have understood, there is a strong possibility it is being interpreted incorrectly no matter how "clear" that person thinks the statement is.

Response
No one came "up" with the doctrine that marriage after a divorce of two that God joined together is adultery. Jesus said it Himself on quite a few different occasions. He very CLEARLY stated such. It matters not that people will not take even the Lord Himself at His own word, but would rather interpret allowances that give them ease in this life. Most of us humans do not want to suffer, but the sad thing is that in avoiding suffering, we twist God's Word to suit the flesh.

Comment/question

What a person may think is crystal clear may actually be completely wrong if he/she has not taken into account crucial elements that would affect how passages are viewed.

Response
As (name deleted) has so thoroughly stated, the Jews KNEW what Jesus meant. However, what we must also realize is that Paul, when teaching the CHRISTIANS, reinforced what Jesus taught. When Paul spoke the commandment of the Lord in I Cor. 7:10-12, it was REaffirmation of what the Lord already taught while on the earth, speaking to Jews.

Comment/question

Divorce by Separation
1. In Greco-Roman culture, divorce was done by separation (a type of no fault divorce). Any manifestation of intention to end the relationship—made clear to the other party and accompanied by actual parting—was all that was legally necessary.
2. In Greco-Roman culture, divorce-by-separation gave the right to remarry.

Response
Who cares what was permissible in Greco-Roman culture...............or in American culture, or in African culture. For one who says they are a CHRISTIAN, God's Word is what dictates how we live these very short lives of ours here on this earth. I must say,  I am shocked at how much you are willing to discount Jesus' very clear words to us in favor of following MAN'S traditions and culture.

Comment/question

Not everything we think has been "revealed" to us is actually true. The only way to know is to measure that revelation by the Word of God. Your belief simply doesn't measure up to Scripture (both OT & NT).

Response
Yes, this "belief" of lifelong marriage DOES measure up to scripture...............Jesus brought marriage back to creation intent. Whatever was "tolerated" at one time, is no longer applicable----according to Jesus Himself.

Comment/question

But you can't really obey what you don't know. We walk according to what we believe is true and what we believe is true comes from what we study/learn from the Word. If what has been "revealed" to you is off, your walk will be off.

Response
Oh yes, that is SO very true----and this is why so many are forsaking the one God joined them to----because they think they can(cheap grace). The enemy is taking great joy in seeing so many covenant families being destroyed. "Brothers" and "sisters" think it ok to take other brother's/sister's/neighbor's spouses as their own because they do not really understand that what they are actually doing is HATING their neighbor/defrauding their brothers/sisters by taking what does not belong to them. Why do they not understand? Because they are not "studying to show themselves approved", hence they do not understand God's love manifested in real life situations/relationships.

Comment/question

Marriage is supposed to be for life and not marriage unto death. You define life by the duration of time one spends here but I define life as vitality in the things of God.

Response
Ah, we get to the crux of what you REALLY believe.............that marriage is to make one "happy" and when that no longer is happening (death), then you believe we have God's stamp of approval to seek "life" with someone else---irregardless of how that affects the "family" God created when He joined two as One...........not to mention the generational destruction that ultimately occurs when people put "happiness" above obedience to God, faithfulness to the vows one takes (irregardless if the other does not remain faithful), integrity, commitment to family.
 

Comment/question

You will understand why some marriages will never be reconciled because the Lord Himself, will not allow it.

Response
No, not because the Lord will not allow it, it is because the Lord has given man some element of freewill---and that is the only reason for some to not reconcile.

Comment/question

I think you should read what I said again because I have never said happiness is the goal of life. What I have done is go back to the purpose of marriage as written by the Lord.
Genesis 2:8
And Jehovah God saith, 'Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.

Proverbs 5:18
Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife of your youth.

Proverbs 12:4
An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, But she who shames {him} is like rottenness in his bones.

Proverbs 18:22
He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD.

Proverbs 19:13
A foolish son is destruction to his father, And the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.

Proverbs 14:1
The wise woman builds her house, But the foolish tears it down with her own hands

Response
The passages you have quoted above, with the exception of the Gen. one, do NOT show purpose, they show the realities of marriage---good and bad.

I'm sure if you were really honest with yourself and us, you would acknowledge that there are ZERO scriptural passages that show it ok with God to ditch a spouse because they are "contentious", "shameful", "foolish", etc, in search of a "good" spouse. On the other hand, you will find NUMEROUS passages that teach about LOVING those who are UNLOVABLE. Many want to apply those passages to OTHER people, but certainly not their own spouse!!
Comment/question

These passages and also all of Song of Solomon gives us God's picture of marriage. The negative and His view. In His creation marriage, spouses are happy. Marriages that the Lord inhabits should produce fruit in keeping with Scripture. There should be rejoicing, favor, comfort, alleviation of loneliness, etc. That can be present even with the challenges that marriages face but in this thread I have made it clear that I'm talking about abusive marriages, marriages where there is unrepentant adulteries being committed or abandonment

Response
It doesn't matter what sins you are trying to allow for a remarriage, the fact remains that sin is a problem in ALL areas of marriage that are not submitted to the Lord. We, as Christians, are called to a HIGHER level of living than the world, who does not have Jesus dwelling within them. We are called to live and love as Jesus loves. You are making exceptions so one doesn't have to love............giving allowances for people to take what does not belong to them by joining themselves with other divorced persons (some of them who have committed adutleries and abuse to THEIR covenant spouses). Personally, I find it quite ironic that many so called "innocent" in a divorce situation hook themselves up with the "guilty" in a remarriage and they think such things are "of God".

Comment/question

Pay close attention to Proverbs 12:4. Here is but one remark on it:
she [is] as rottenness in his bones;
a constant grief to his mind, a pressure upon his spirits, a wasting of his body, and a consumption of his estate; she is, as the Targum has it, "as a worm in wood", which rots and consumes it.
rottenness--an incurable evil
This is what is meant by marriage for life and marriage unto death. All you need to do is look around at some of these marriages see this passage played out.

Response
Yes, I see this being played out because people refuse to submit to the Lord, allowing their flesh to cause destruction, pain, sorrow. You are looking in the scriptures for a way to LOOSE one from the sufferings of this life. The scriptures, when obeyed/trusted equip us to ENDURE, PERSEVERE, OVERCOME, THROUGH our sufferings---to give GOD the Glory, not to give us "happy" lives. One point of view is others/God focused and the other point of view is ME focused. Which view is overwhelmingly found in scripture as the one which is pleasing to the Lord and focused on the eternal kingdom which endures forever, not this earthly kingdom which will pass away? Think about it.............pray about it............and focus on the one Christ came to save and you will find your answer. The answer will NOT revolve around SELF.............

Comment/question
Cindy, I have neither the time nor the inclination to debate this topic with you. I stand by my assertation that your distorted MDR theory HAS been Scripturally debunked
Response
(Name Deleted), you can stand by your statement, but unless you are able to scripturally refute any of our concerns in regards to the unbiblical remarriage practices that have increased in our society, then saying our position that marriage is lifelong has been "debunked" is very much untrue.

Comment/question
.... and it is receiving the same needed treatment here. Isn't it amazing that Jesus has an uncanny way of lifting up others to refute error on these sites????
Response
Actually, what I find wonderful is that Truth can never be hidden away when there are those who have hearts for the truth---no matter the personal cost to themselves. I am more than encouraged by the amount of people I now am seeing that are coming OUT of adulterous unions----after they themselves have diligently sought after the Lord and have found themselves to be in sinful unions---biblically speaking..........and now are trying to right their sin. That is of great encouragement to those who are standing/praying/fasting for those who have lost spouses to adulterous remarriages and for those children who are praying for their covenant families to be restored. Many are now seeing that restoration is a very REAL possibility----praise the Lord!!!

Comment/question
It’s very simple….We speak and interpret the truth in the bible.n uncanny way of lifting up others to refute error on these sites????
Response
And the above is why some have issue with those who teach that marriage after a divorce is adultery...............ongoing adultery. We are simply "interpreting the truth" as given in God's Word---(Mt. 5:32, Mt. 19:9, Mk. 10:10-12, Lk. 16:15-18, Rom. 7:2-3, ICor. 7:10-12, I Cor. 7:39, Mal. 2:14, Jer. 3:1,14). Because we interpret what Jesus said (the truth) as not changing--- though man's beliefs/practices are ever changing, people are challenged in their practices.

Many do not like to be challenged--------especially if they knew beforehand what Jesus taught and went ahead and sinned anyways by taking another's spouse as their own. Justifications can fly, excuses can be made, the opposition can be attacked, but God's Word will stand, no matter how some may twist it to suit their own desires/evil practices. In the end, it will be by His Word, which endureth forever, that each of us will be judged........and many of us want repentance to reign over judgment-----that is our heart's motive. Blessings...........

Comment/question
Cindy, are you prepared to state that YOUR version of the truth is the REAL Truth?
Response
If any of us are not fully convinced of our beliefs and cannot present God's Word to support our beliefs, then we should not try to convince others of what we are not fully convinced of. I am VERY convinced of what I believe/speak/share with others. I believe it completely lines up with God's Written Word and heart on the issue.

Comment/question
Ok, Cindy, then is it fair to say that you are willing to stand before Jesus and answer for your MDR theology?
Response
absolutely.

Comment/question

Cindy, I am well aware that you believe in conditional salvation. You are also aware that I believe in eternal security. So, IMO, I do not receive ANY counsel from you that would state that a believer in Christ can sacrifice their salvation. Heavenly rewards once they get to heaven? Yes.ly still married. Of course that leads to the remarriage adultery theory.

Response
Where do you get that I believe in "conditional salvation"? I too believe in eternal security, just not the cheap grace kind that is found in many churches today. That "gospel" is breeding many, many false converts. I believe what Jesus said in John 6:37-40----
37"(A)All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38"For (B)I have come down from heaven, (C)not to do My own will, but (D)the will of Him who (E)sent Me.

39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (F)all that He has given Me I (G)lose nothing, but (H)raise it up on the last day.

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (I)beholds the Son and (J)believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will (K)raise him up on the last day."

I also believe what Jesus said here in Mt. 7:21-23----- "21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

It is not for me to say who is who, but I do believe that those who TRULY are the children of God----those whom the Father gave the Son, will not CONTINUE in sin as it is made known to them. Those who do not belong to the Lord will continue saying, "Lord, Lord", but will not do what He says. They will instead continue to practice lawlessness. Jesus said it, I merely am coming into agreement with that.

Comment/question

Now, you use a real stretch of the Scriptures to promote the marriage martyr theology.

Response
Quoting scripture, word for word, is not "stretching" the scriptures, nor is it taking a "part" and ignoring the whole. You are taking a part, standing on that as truth, while ignoring the WHOLE...........and I'm not just speaking of the common marriage scriptures, I speaking of the law of LOVE which is to govern all TRUE believers in Christ Jesus. Those who are continually looking for "loopholes" are in actuality looking for ways NOT to love as Jesus loves, but to follow the world's way of handling disappointment, betrayal, etc.

Comment/question

I'm not of the opinion that the office of marriage itself is greater than the people IN that marriage.

Response
Yes, I'm very well aware that you are conditional on your view of marriage commitments.

Comment/question

Jesus came to save and heal people FIRST, Cindy.

Response
Jesus came to save that which was lost and to UNBOUND those who are bound in sin, yes? When we come to saving faith, we KNOW we are sinners!! We know we must submit our lives to Christ from here on out. What we don't know is all of the things we are guilty of..........He shows us that bit by bit. When He shows us those things, some of them(past sins) require acts of restitution. Some of the sins are present day and require our forsaking of those sins. In regards to "bad" marriages, God did not come to give us a "get out of jail card for free". He came to HEAL those marriages, so that what HE joined together would bring HIM glory.

Comment/question

You know, I've visited this site for the first time after several months and I'm still so amazed that we all call ourselves Christians, but we have managed to type up 205 pages of posts debating our views on what the Word of God says about marriage/divorce/adultery. Why is that? Is it our own individual interpretations? I'm sure most think that the Lord has given them insight for or against marriage/remarriage, so how do you know you are hearing and understanding correctly? How do you know if you are right? How do you know what is the right way if everyone thinks God has given them revelation on this issue and everyone has a different response?
Response
Many of us post because we know that new posters usually will not seek out OLD threads, but will read ongoing discussions and jump in if they have a question/comment.

For some of us, this is a VERY important issue(temporally and eternally), especially since remarriage after divorce from a covnenant spouse has skyrocketed in the professing church in the West. People need to get in the Word and consider for themselves what truly IS the truth, not just rely on what their pastors are teaching (and they are all teaching DIFFERENT things!). Whose right? I think I am and so does (Name Deleted) and (Name Deleted). We are definitely opposed in our viewpoints. In the end, it matters who was right in that we either lead others TO sin or led them away from sin, and for such, we will be held accountable. I take that very serious and I live what I preach on the matter concerning the seriousness of marriage in the sight of the Lord.

Comment/question

One thing I have always appreciated in the material I've read and presented in some of my posts, is that the authors are still happily married and have never been divorced.
Response
The marital situations of authors was not the issue. We already can concede that most teaching on the MDR issue in churches comes from those Pastors who have never been divorced.......but most of them cannot teach "passionately" about the issue as their own positions have many holes(hence all the various teachings on MDR).

The issue was that many who POST fervently FOR remarriage after divorce, ARE remarried themselves. That in itself causes some question in whether one fights to perserve their status, or whether one genuinely believes they are AOK in the Lord's sight in the union they have entered into. In the other camp, concerning posters, there are a wide range of marital situations-----first time marrieds, divorced(not remarried), widows/widowers, and those who have been convicted of being in adulterous unions (remarriages) who have forsaken or are in the process of forsaking those sinful unions. Those who "speak out passionately" in the lifelong marriage camp are much more diverse, as a whole---so saying one has a particular agenda due to one's marital situation cannot be said. It is true that we all have agendas, but the only one which really matters is the one that aligns with God's agenda for marriage.

Comment/question

I believe anyone who is sensitive to God's spirit and is mature understands they have to be on their guard against having "itching ears" based on their own situations, which is why we are called to Bible study that is all the more diligent and painstakingly thorough.
Response
I believe this is very true. If someone is truly sensitive to the Spirit, I don't think they will find themselves in such a situation, and if they do, they will care enough to do what is right in God's sight to rectify their disobedience.

However, I myself have seen situations in which one "appears" or presents themselves as a very studied/mature person, but their life's choices in the area of divorce/remarriage reflects something entirely different---reflects that they are NOT following Christ, but their own passions/selfish desires by taking what does not belong to them. One person in particular I know got involved with a married person. They complained about the person's spouse in another online forum, making excuses as to why it was ok to be involved with this married person.............a married person whose spouse wanted to work out their problems, no less.

The forsaken spouse is a Christian..........The one who came between the couple also claims to be a Christian. Hmmm, wonder which one has God's favor in this situation? In any case, now that this person has taken the other's spouse as their own and come in between a covenant marriage, hurting the children of this marriage as well, they want to say that this "covenant" spouse should "move on".............that this is what God wants. This is not God. This is selfish preservation. In a case such as this, I would definitely say that such a person has a HUGE agenda to try and convince others(maybe even the spouse they took, as the spouse may be having second thoughts on the rightness of divorcing their spouse). They want to teach that those who have entered into adulterous unions SHOULD stay in their adulterous unions-----because they know if the person they took comes to the Truth or if the truth becomes widely accepted, in spite of persuasions to the contrary, they will stand to LOSE what was not rightfully theirs to begin with.

Comment/question

One thing I do want to mention is that just because someone has gone through something doesn't mean they are doctrinally incorrect when they talk about it.
Response
And it doesn't mean they ARE correct because they have gone through something. Having the RHEMA Word in a person produces Truth. Experience, or lack thereof, is not something any of us should trust in to discern the Will of God. Unless one is speaking of the experiences gained in handling the Word of God correctly in our every day life, the "bad" we go through cannot EVER be what leads us to make choices as believers. Only the Word, revealed by the Holy Spirit (and not one word for you, one word for me, one word for Sue, one word for Steve). God's Truths apply to ALL of mankind, especially concering moral issues.

Comment/question

What is true of life is that we are ever-growing and our experiences shape us. What we thought was true at age 20, we find was horribly wrong at age 35. That's the way of human nature because we're not all-knowing. On this thread we have found postings from those who, at one time, believed remarriage was ok and now they don't. We have also heard from those who believed it was sin and now say it's not. Both cite their own Bible study and time with the Lord as the catalyst behind the change.
Response
And here is the issue at hand..........not all who have "grown" have grown TOWARDS the truth. Some have grown AWAY from truth and many times, it is their own personal experiences which have been placed ABOVE the Word of God in discerning the Will of God. That is why many times we see emotional arguments for a particular side being used and little of the Word of God. Some have made God into their own image of what God should be, not what Scripture tells us about the nature/person of God/judgments of God. In such things, we need to be very careful to make sure we are RIGHTLY representing God----to our own minds/hearts as well as to those who read our posts.

Comment/question

It would be very easy for me to say that those who believe as you do have to support this doctrine and try to prove it's correct biblically because they have divorced again, broken covenant with yet another person they gave their word to. They have to believe God told them to do this because the pain and devastation caused by yet another divorce needs to be explained somehow. The best scapegoat, imo, is God. If you tell me that God told you to do something, no matter how irrational it may be (to some of us), we're expected to not look at you cross-eyed and question your actions. Grab some verses that seem to back that move up and that should be the end of the story.
Response
You have been shown that those who repent of remarriage adultery are not using God as a "scapegoat"...........they are walking in obedience by forsaking a relationship the LORD calls sin. They are doing no different than the men of Ezra did-----and that WAS pleasing to the Lord, as prior to that, while IN THOSE SINFUL RELATIONSHIPS, the judgment of God was falling upon that nation. They were making right with God.

Comment/question

This is not being said to offend. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is an agenda on your side as well, for both those who have made this decision and those who teach that this is what should be done in the case of a remarriage.
Response
Yes, I'll admit I do have an agenda-----to speak the Truth in hopes that those with hearts to seek the Lord will do so. I also have hopes that many who possibly would enter into adulterous remarriages would think twice, so they do not later find themselves in a relationship they find out is displeasing (sinful) to the Lord----because they chose to follow the masses instead of getting into God's Word and seeing what God has to say on the matter. Most get married without a clue what the Word of God teaches on marriage. This is sad!!

Comment/question

Those who teach it have an even greater stake in this being true! They have counseled and supported couples in divorcing.
Response
Absolutely, and the sad part is that this counsel would be RARE if people knew the word of God BEFORE they divorced their covenant spouses or were divorced by their covenant spouses. Instead they follow what others in the "church" are doing, thinking, "surely so and so is a Godly person and they are remarried, so it must not be bad/sin".............

I liken this a lot to the abortion issue. Many were getting abortions with the teaching that the "baby" was really just a "blob" of tissue. Then, the activists came on the scene. They worked and worked to get ultrasound equipment into abortion clinics so the patients could SEE that what they were thinking of aborting is NOT a blob of tissue, but a miniature human being, made in the likeness of God!!!! Ignorance caused much sin to occur. In like manner, today, ignorance of what marriage really is to God, is causing much sin to occur. Some of us have been raised up to be "activists" for Biblical marriage. Like some who want to "quell" the anti-abortion activists revealing of truth, there are some who want to quell the truth on divorce/remarriage.

The "stake" for us, is not that we could be wrong..........it is that many ARE wrong and we know what the Word of God states to the brethren: do not be deceived, the unrighteous (including those who are living in adulterous relationships) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It is THAT serious to us!!!

Comment/question

If this doctrine is not true how would you be able to explain the broken marriages, broken families, pain, devastation that has come about because of another divorce? How would you respond to the people, christian and non-christian, whose lives have been wrecked as a result of this teaching if it's found to be false?
Response
Sin has repercussions. Some of them are VERY painful to deal with. That is why it is important to arm oneself with the truth.......to guard against deception, for oneself and for the children we have been given. There is MUCH more devastation with broken first marriages than we will ever see with those who forsake adulterous remarriage............and the devastation in such cases is temporal, not eternal, as is the case if YOU are wrong in what you live/counsel others to do. I would have much more concern being in your "camp" than mine to be quite honest.........as those in my "camp" believe in the integrity of covenant marriage/family, whereas you do not. You only believe in whatever relationship one is PRESENTLY in. That is a much more difficult position to prove in light of the many scriptures which show that relationships OUTSIDE the covenant marriage are sin.

Comment/question

Might I add also that sometimes those who fight so hard against divorce have backgrounds in which parents or siblings have gotten married and divorced maybe more than one time. They may have seen a lot of heartache that has come about because these second, third or fourth marriages didn't work out. They may conclude that if the couple never divorced things could have worked out. To them, their judgment says the marriage could have worked had they stuck it out and not divorced and remarried. With that in mind, they go to Scripture and see the Word through those lenses/filters. Who, with a background like that or similar, wouldn't jump at the chance to see the Bible as saying no divorce, no remarriage, no matter what?
Response
I see you read one of my posts in another thread today. The problem you have with your reasoning above is that for many years I DID believe divorce/remarriage was ok. It was not until I got my nose/mind/heart into the Word of God that my eyes were "opened" to the Truth. Most who are in my "camp" have MUCH to lose holding this position----they are rejected by family/friends, pushed out of those churches in which remarriage is common place, etc. So, to walk this road in this culture of divorce/remarriage, is a HARD road to walk. In this, your reasoning is very flawed.

Comment/question

Having a sibling getting remarried, and having to tell the family that I'm not attending the wedding because God says they are entering into an adulterous affair. You can imagine how that went over! How much easier it would have been to congratulate them and tell them what a wonderful couple they made, but as a Christian I am obligated to tell the truth. Having this position has gotten me anything but praise, but has made quite a few people angry with me.
Response
Oh, believe me, I know exactly what you speak of!!! It would be MUCH easier to be like the rest: smile, and say "congrats", even if you didn't like the union. Walking out our convictions is a hard and many times, very lonely thing.

Comment/question

Also, getting pushed out of Churches; Been there too, but that turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened. You can learn a lot about God's Word when someone else isn't trying to tell you what it says all of the time.
Response
I find it quite interesting that MANY are leaving mainstream churches today----over this issue and many others (there's even a book by Barna (the Christian pollster) written on this very issue). The main reason I believe is because more and more, people who REALLY hunger and thirst after God, are seeing less and less of God in the Churches and more and more of man's plans/purposes/business transactions, etc. Because of this, we see sin abounding in the churches of today........and a big sin that can be found is "religiousness"...........if you get your card stamped at least once a week, serve in various ministries within the church, tithe, etc, you are considered a "good" Christian. Where is holiness, reverence, faithfulness? It is true that when you go "outside" the system, you can THEN see what is driving it---and it's not God at the steering wheel. I wish I could see a great revival shown in the scriptures for the last days, but all I am able to see is that many will FALL AWAY from the Lord due to the love of sin (II Thess. 2, II Tim. 3-4).

Comment/question

Does anyone think we may be wasting time worrying about all the remarriage stuff when marriage is not even going to exist in Heaven?

Not that it would affect me anyhow, but I do find it curious how we get so caught up in opinions that won't matter in eternity.
Response
I guess I don't follow your line of reasoning. There's not going to be stealing in heaven either, or fornication, or homosexuality, or murder, or covetousness, etc, etc.............so because these things will not exist in heaven, shall we not address them if they are problems in the confessing church?

Adultery is a HUGE problem in the confessing church of today.........shall we not discuss it and persuade those who confess Christ to turn away from it? Does it not matter to us that Paul warned the Church not to be deceived..........that adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God and Jesus called remarriage, adultery?

Comment/question

The vows repeated in the wedding ceremonies of today are man-made. They are NOT made TO God. They are made to the person standing across from them. It is the same as any other statement or promise that a person makes that they don't keep. No difference.

A true marriage is in the Heart of both people. It takes a long time to truly be married in your heart. Some people are NEVER married in their hearts. The worse that they are doing is committing fornication under the disguise of a legal piece of paper. As soon as they leave that "marriage", they STOP sinning. If they ever find their true mate, they may become married in their heart. Only God knows what is in the hearts of people.

I know a woman that has been legally married four times, but confided in me that she never felt truly "one" with any of them. She may have some emotional problems from childhood abuse that kept her from trusting and completely giving of herself. Sounds like it from the things that she has told me. So in God's eyes, she may have NEVER been joined with someone and became as one person.

There is no marriage in Heaven. We won't be joined or be "one" with anybody. So I think all this has been made into a big deal for nothing that really matters to our soul-salvation.

There are a lot of people who post on here and continually quote scriptures from the Old Testament. Yet they don't take ALL of the Old Testament. If they did, they wouldn't be eating Cheeseburgers or Ham. The woman wouldn't dare wear a pair of pants. And lots, lots more laws that they would have to abide by.

Also, there were many men in the Old Testament that were called by God for His purpose that were married more than once. Some of them had more wives than they could count.

You can't take part of the Bible without taking it all. However, the Word of God has to be rightly divided.

I'm sure that the people that I have blocked will blast me with pages of the same old quotes, but I won't have to read them!
Response
Why post on a thread where you can't see opposing views? That is an odd thing for a Christian who desires to dialogue on such an important issue. I notice also that you do not have ANY scripture in your post, yet say that those who teach first marriages are joined by God are wrong..............that marriage is simply a "heart feeling".........."if you FEEL married, then you ARE married".........Where do you find such a teaching in God's Word?

If Jesus teaches that a couple is committing adultery by divorcing their covenant spouse and remarrying, you are at odds with Him. It doesn't matter if this new couple "feels" married...........it does not matter if the WORLD tells this new couple they are married. Jesus says they are committing adultery. Do you believe His Word or do you believe that FEELINGS are how truth is discerned. Do you not know that God said that the heart is deceptively wicked?

Comment/question

Is this the teaching that is posted on www.marriagedivorce.com If so this teaching has been around for a very long time.
Response
Ah, you don't realize how right you are. This is the teaching that Jesus taught and this is the teaching that the very earliest church taught as well.

Comment/question

Many denominations do not believe in remarriage after a divorce.
Response
There are NOT many denominations that hold to the permanency of marriage anymore. There USED to be many denominations that held to the truth. However, as more and more sin has come to be accepted as ok within the world in general, the churches have followed suit. That's a real shame because the Church was to be the leader in moral uprightness/standards. Now, many in professing Church are following the ways of the world, instead of leading the world to God and being a "light" to them, a TRUE representation of Jesus.

Comment/question

Matthew talks about it, You will find it talked about in 1 Corinthians. Divorce was not a subject that Jesus liked to talk about with the apostles.
Response
Mt. 5, Mt. 19, Mk. 10, Lk 16, Rom. 7, I Cor. 7, etc are all NT scriptures dealing with the marriage/divorce issue. I don't know where you get that this is a subject Jesus did not like to talk about. He spoke quite a bit about it and was very firm about which relationships were sin in His eyes in regards to the putting away of a lawful spouse and the marriage to an unlawful partner.

Comment/question

Unfortunately, things happen, people get divorced and want to remarry. They feel that there marriages have been dissolved.
Response
It doesn't matter if people "feel" their marriages have been dissolved. It doesn't matter if the "world" tells people their marriages are dissolved. It only matters if GOD says one is free to marry--because HE dissolved what HE joined together...........Man does not have the power to undo what GOD has done.

Comment/question

With love and understanding, maybe people will get back to what God meant for a marriage to be.
Response
Yes, we need to reach out to people with love to teach them the truth on this matter, but only GOD can truly reveal His will and cause them to forsake their sin. Love and understanding won't cause change in a person---it may open them up to "hearing" truth, but only a TRULY REPENTANT heart, one that desires to forsake their sin and follow Jesus, will bring about changes in mindset and actions. Blessings.......

Comment/question

Why must Christian be placed into quotes on this thread, is it to display that they're not? Why is that? I was asked earlier to quote what I think is shown as an arrogant statement, and I wanted to refrain from it....but that would be it. Putting the word Christian in quotes.
Response
Let me explain why I use that method............it is to speak of ACTIONS of those who profess to be Christian, not toward the person themselves. I know that true Christians can sin.......in some very big ways!! However, their actions, when sinning, are NOT reflective of how a Christian SHOULD act. I personally, am not of the mindset that one who is in adultery is unsaved and then automatically when they come to knowledge of their sin and leave that sin...........poof, they become saved. I believe that Christians, true Christians can walk in deception, but I also believe that if one IS a true Christian, the Lord WILL deal with them and bring them out of the bondage of sin.

edited to add: Let me also say this: the Lord was clear that not all who say, "Lord, Lord", belong to Him, but those who do the will of His Father in heaven, so the reality is that not all(and to be scripturally accurate, probably most) who post on Christian boards are not possessors of Christ, but only professors.........that is why it is of utmost importance to show those new Christians and those seeking, Who Jesus is in regards to sin, judgment, love, and acceptance. We must be careful to show a TRUE representation of Jesus according to the Word of God.

One thing that we must remember in this discussion is that we have to compare apples to apples. Concerning the woman caught in adultery.........she knew she was guilty. She did not lie, try to make excuses, etc. She acknowledged her sin, though I'm sure she was angry/upset that judgment was falling on her alone, instead of alongside the man she was committing adultery with.

I realize though, that the Lord has to reveal the "hard things" in each of our lives that we won't acknowledge as sin-----things others can see is sin.........

And we also need to manifest longsuffering towards those who are in opposition to the truth.........an area I am not yet perfected in . I pray the Goodness of God leads those who are in adultery to see the sin as the Lord does and they will be free from the bondage and be incredible witnesses to those the Lord sends them to. I know some of them.......and truly my heart IS towards the adulteress/adulterer who desires to "go and sin no more" as well as the spouse who was forsaken, but as (Name Deleted) said, it is VERY hard dealing with one who is NOT remorseful/repentant. Personally, I must remember that the war is not with flesh and blood, but is fought in the Spiritual realm.............

Comment/question

I find it intriquing that the story of marriage-death-and remarriage that Jesus gave was to illustrate our relationship with rules and regulations.

The first husband was Rules and Regs. We found it impossible to please him. He died. Jesus then brought grace. The old husband, Rules, is dead so that we cannot go back to him even if we wanted to.

So what are so many doing here? IMHO, they are trying to keep us tied to the old husband Rules and Regs while claiming to be brides of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10: 23-24. everything is lawful but not everything is beneficial.

Of course, God/ Jesus wants us to use the wisdom and leading of the Holy Spirit to find the right mate and live with grace until death do you part. Or have the parents use wisdom and grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit to arrange such a union.

When Jesus was talking to his disciples and they balked at the idea that this is the attitude you should have, he was a bit tongue in cheek when he proclaimed, " then you shouldn't get married". Just like when we say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".
Response
I understand where you are coming from (name deleted). However, my take on the "rules" thing is that those who are looking for and trying to justify remarriage are actually like the Pharisee, the religious of the day. God had "rules", which we know as God's LAWS, and they tried to get around those laws-------tried to take license where there was no license given(hence them putting away their wives for ANY cause)...........and as can be seen in this discussion, the same things are being done.

For those who truly believe God allows a remarriage in the case of adultery (believing remarriage includes that), do you honestly believe Jesus was giving permission for what we are seeing today???

As for "rules", the truth is, God has LAWS which are in effect whether we follow them or not, whether we like them or not. Does God want us to follow the "rules"? Yes, but more importantly, He wants us to have the right hearts so we understand the "rules" from His perspective and follow them out of love for HIM and others. Jesus did not come, give His life, be resurrected, so that we can continue to ignore His rules and say His "blood covers all".........He came to free us from the bondage of sin(including adultery).............to give us power to follow God how God wants to be followed.

Comment/question

Not all marriages consists of a man and woman having sex. If in a relationship where the man and woman are not having sex at all, but are simply living together, would that be considered adulterous? Let's say the man and woman have come to the knowledge of the truth, and because of the truth have repented, and are no longer having any form of sexual contact...is this considered adultery? Yes, in most cases there is some temptation...but we are all tempted in some way or another are we not? Does this mean that we are not to live together?
Response
Well, let me ask you this: How did Jesus define adultery? Did He believe it ONLY encompassed the physical act? Let me also ask you this: If it is wrong to have relations with another person (ie; in an adulterous remarriage), is it then ok to for that married woman/man to live with another when in the Lord's eyes they have a covenant spouse? In other words, is it ok for a married woman (a woman who already has a covenant spouse) to live with another man?

Comment/question
In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins will keep waiting and waiting for their former mate to repent and return to them, but the five prudent virgins will wait for their perfect Bridegroom to come and the five prudent ones are so prepared and ready for Him and the wedding will take place without the five foolish virgins! The door will be shut for their foolishness of waiting and waiting for their former mate to repent and return to them!

That is the difference between the prudent and the foolish virgins! The foolish are waiting for their former spouse to repent and return to them, but the prudent are waiting for their perfect Bridegroom.
Response
Your analogy does not make any sense to me. They were ALL waiting for the SAME bridegroom. The foolish were the ones who did NOT prepare for His coming (cheap grace). The wise prepared by LIVING for HIM, not themselves (whosoever loves me obeys me). The foolish "looked" like His virgins............but He tells them, "I know you not"...........This is what He says to those who look "spiritual", yet are disobedient to Him (Matthew 7:21-23).

Comment/question

Some here are stating it (marriage) is to "satisfy our fleshly desires"...Hey, God wired us the way he wired us. He wired us to share our lives.
Response
Yes, God did wire most "that way", yet He made marriage to be with ONE person for life. Sometimes there are things within that marriage in which one/both can't work "that way"........yet His Grace is sufficient in such cases, no? Paul teaches in I Corinthians 7 that each man is to have HIS OWN wife and each woman is to have her OWN husband. Is this what we see going on in the churches today? I don't believe so. Many are joining themselves with someone else's spouse.