"Look at the legalized adultery we call divorce. Men marry one wife after another and are still admitted into good society; and women do likewise. There are thousands of supposedly respectable men in America living with other men's wives, and thousands of supposedly respectable women living with other women's husbands." - R. A. Torrey From R.A. Torrey's book How to Pray, pages 94-95

R.A. Torrey (1856-1928) was a very well-known Christian writer, evangelist, pastor, graduate of Yale University, and was also the superintendent of Moody Bible Institute for 19 years.

TRINITY BARS THE DIVORCED.; No Remarriage in the Church or Any of the Chapels.

The clergy of Trinity Church announced yesterday that under no circumstances will divorced persons be married by any of the clergy of that Episcopal parish, nor will such marriages be permitted either in the church at Wall Street and Broadway or in any one of the parish's eight chapels. The announcement was as follows:
View full article New York Times
December 7, 1904, Wednesday

Frequently Asked Questions, Comments and Arguments about Marriage Divorce & Remarriage

Do Not Judge / Where Is Grace?

 

Comment/question
It amazes me that a far bigger crime is placed on those who are married a second time than those in the church who committed adultery (which is all too quickly covered up)
Response
I don't believe any of us would ever think it ok to commit adultery OR to cover it up. The hypocrisy I see is that some believe extramarital adultery is in one camp----those type should be dealt with, but those who commit adultery through remarriage after a divorce---should be elevated to positions of leadership within a church if it "appears" they are faithful to "this" wife. That is a very confusing stance to me.......

 

This very stance is why the homosexual "Christians" are calling us HYPOCRITES! They see very clearly that remarriage is called adultery by Jesus, yet we say it is not adultery........yet we will come down pretty hard on other sexual sins 'within the camp'. Personally, I believe it has become such because we KNOW people and LOVE people who are divorced and remarried and we think "surely those scriptures CAN'T mean what they say"....surely there has to be some grace extended towards THAT sin.

 

Where is our measurement of sin coming from---within our own reasonings, or according to the Lord's judgments?

 

Believe me, I would be very happy if you can show that the marriages which take place after a divorce, which are named by Jesus and Paul as adulterous unions, somehow come to be honored by God---the previous marriage dissolved. That's what I used to believe, but I can no longer hold to such a view in light of the Words of Jesus and Paul on the matter. I believe it was the Lord Himself who showed me the inequity of judgment within the Church on the issue of sexual sin/illicit relationships. I can see nothing but hypocrisy now----especially when I see big named ministries fighting so hard against homosexuality, yet remaining deafeningly quiet on the issue of church sanctioned adultery.

What Ron said about those on the "outside" is an important facet and consideration not only in leadership issues, but in our dealings with sin overall within our ranks. The "world" is watching us......watching to see if what we speak lines up with what we do.

 

Comment/question
Is it ok to get married when one is divorced?

 

I have mixed feelings about this. I know you're going to disagree but I think it is unreasonable to ask someone to spend the rest of their life alone just because (for example) their spouse did not live up to their vows in some major way (causing divorce) or chose to initiate the divorce.
Response
I am grieved that anyone who professes to follow Jesus would say such a thing. Jesus has spoken on the matter and He HAS said that to enter into a marriage after divorce is to commit adultery. Did He understand human loneliness? Of course He did, yet He also led Paul to reaffirm His teachings on the matter: If a woman does depart, she is to remain UNMARRIED OR be reconciled to her husband and a husband is NOT to put his wife away (I Corinthians 7:10-11)? Why must we honor this in spite of loneliness---BECAUSE we say we love the Lord and because when we marry our first marriage partner, we are joined for life. Only death will free one to marry again (Romans 7:2-3, I Corinthians 7:39).

 

Comment/question
As a side note - People like to think there is "spouse stealing" going on here. Let me clear that up quickly. You throw out what you consider garbage and it winds up in another person's house because it wasn't garbage but actually a find piece of furniture, don't run around now accusing someone of stealing from you. You threw it away!!!

 

Anything you abuse, you will lose!!!!
Response
The problem here #1 is that some spouses did NOT throw away the other spouse, but another party entered the scene and gave cause for a marriage not to be worked on. Problem #2---you have completely left God out of the equation. HE joins the two as One.........only HE can separate that and He chooses to do so at death.

 

Just because 1 or even 2 are in agreement to the disposition of the marriage does not mean that God is ok with it. That is the problem you have in all your reasonings. You think man holds sway over God. If, one truly belongs to Jesus, their life is no longer their own. Their "happiness" is not a driving force----unless they have reclaimed their life back from the Lord. If one belongs to the Lord, it is HIS will one desires to do, not their own. If one belongs to the Lord, it is their DESIRE to love the brethren, not to defraud the brethren by taking each other's spouses......

 

IF one belongs to the Lord, their ultimate desire, though they may stumble at times, is ultimately to be like Jesus and do the Will of the Father in Heaven...............and He is a covenant keeper.

 

One of the signs of the last days nature of man is that they are "covenant breakers"........they have a form of godliness, yet lack the power thereof. (II Tim. 3-4). What I see in the forsaking of marriages in the Christian community is a lack of faith----there is NO power, just flesh----"I'm not happy, and I want what I want"........ Faith, true saving faith, walks out I Cor. 13 though it is uncomfortable to the flesh. They BELIEVE the impossible..............They TRUST the Lord with all their hearts.........They are LONG suffering, knowing that if the do not "grow weary in well doing", there WILL be a reward.

 

Covenant breaking ultimately is because people do not want to suffer........they flee it and then because they flee it, the Lord is not able to conform them in His image.......they do not want to die to self for the good of the kingdom and others, they want to live----for themselves. They do not want to be partakers in the sufferings of Christ........

 

Some may say that is judgmental. Maybe so, but I believe that is the underlying issue in all "professing" Christian divorces. They divorce because their is a lack of faith and trust in the Lord........They do what they KNOW is displeasing to the Lord due to circumstances and then try to make excuses for their sin against the Lord and others.

 

Comment/question
I am so very glad that God is more merciful and forgiving than people. I am truly thankful that I will be judged by Him and not some Pharisaical Christians.
Response
The Lord will judge using the same thing we are called to judge by WITHIN the church---His Word. It's not being "pharisaical" to rely upon the Lord's Word for direction/correction/encouragement/chastisement----it is what we should live by as followers of Jesus Christ----otherwise we are no different than the heathen who believe if their "good" works outweigh their "bad" works they will make it to heaven, cause God is a nice and fair God.

 

Yet, what does the Word of God say? In Mt. 7:21-23 Jesus says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven. MANY in that day shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY.

 

Jesus also says in Jn. 14:23: If a man loves me, he WILL keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me NOT, keepeth NOT my sayings; and the word which ye hear is NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S which sent me.

 

If Jesus says that to divorce and marry another while one has a living spouse is adultery (having unlawful relations with one who is NOT your spouse)........why do we think that Jesus WILL bless this? Are His words not from the Father Himself passed down to those who say they love the Lord?

 

Comment/question
I'm sorry, but I can't help but view some of the replies from the no-remarriage people as usually totally lacking compassion. I know, they'd say that it has to do with the letter of the law, so to speak. But Jesus was not so far into the law that He missed the spirit of the law and also people along the way. I maintain my view that if a couple divorces there is no reason why they must be further punished by having to live alone or else reconcile (especially when there has been abuse). There is no love in that at all. When I look at the rest of the Scriptures (and yes I've read them, twice so far) I do not see a God who would tell me that I must suffer for my spouse's sin for the rest of my life.
Response
Each of us has the freedom to take the Word of God and apply it to the lives we say are IN CHRIST, or we have the freedom to explain away whatever is not pleasant for us. Many have explained away the Words of the Lord----that is why we see the growing acceptance of homosexuality in the church as well as rampant divorce/remarriage. Most people, scripture teaches, will follow the broad road of destruction. If we love our brethren, we should encourage each other to walk the narrow path.

 

Comment/question
I do think a lot of people don't see the spirit behind a lot of what has been said in scripture. I mean to say that people that re-marry and are happy will never enter the gates of heaven is a little black and white to me.

 

Separation I guess is okay, but BOY if you divorce and possiblity go on with your life down the road are you in BIG trouble! Personally, I think the spirit of what is being said is lost in alot of people's translations. I am sure it will stay that way also for them.

 

I also have a really hard time with the idea of you have one chance at love as a couple, and then forever more it will forbidden fruit for you. Then you have those that have one person struggling to keep it alive, and is left behind...always be alone forever because of this forbidden fruit of "only once"!
Response
Don’t you think the Lord knew ALL the differing scenarios of marriage and all the sins involved in marital relationships, yet He said what He said ("remain unmarried or be reconciled" and "whosoever divorces and marries another commits adultery).

 

Yes, God is love..........His is AGAPE love......that is the love those in Christ are expected to extend to others-----especially those whom the Lord joined us with. When we walk in God's love, Agape love, we WILL remain committed no matter what sin comes against us----because we desire and place that person's good above our own. We must also remember that God has called us to obedience and the "dying to self". The scripture "it is no longer I that live, but Christ who lives within me" is what EVERY Christian should aspire to in their walk with the Lord. When we live for Christ, we "die to self" we do not justify what we "should have"..........we acknowledge our circumstances that we DO have and live to the Glory of Christ.

 

Comment/question
"we should encourage each other to walk the narrow path."

 

So my fellow Christans should encourage me to either a.) remain in an emotionally abusive marriage or b.) remain alone for the rest of my life with no chance of remarriage or to have children? There is NO love in that. I do not believe that I must be punished for the rest of my life because of my husband's sin.
Response
We Christians should encourage each other to continue following Christ; to not turn away from Him and His commands because they are too hard to bear. When we follow Him, even down lonely, dark pathways, HE will enable us to accomplish those hard things set before us........many times He sends brothers and sisters to come alongside and encourage a faltering saint to PERSEVERE.

 

Comment/question
God is not waiting at the door to point His finger in condemnation. It seems that many here would take that position, however, which is sad.
Response
No, you are quite wrong. Many who believe in the permanency and sanctity of the "one flesh" marriage joined by God do NOT believe that abuse is AOK with God. What many of us have issue with is the mindset that if someone "feels" abused or actually is, then they now have the freedom not only to "depart" (I Cor. 7:10-11), now they feel they have the right to be joined with another partner who may be "nicer", more "godly", etc. Scripture is very clear that if a woman DOES depart, she is to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled to her husband. She is NOT free to marry another and if she chooses to do so, she will then enter into an adulterous relationship, since the LORD still views the "one flesh" marriage as binding. We can call ourselves remarried "legally", but that does not mean that God will recognize it as such. He is not bound to agree with us.........we are however, bound to agree with Him, if we truly do belong to Him.

 

Comment/question
You can all quote as many scriptures as you want to but the bottom line is the decisions we make are between that person and God....

 

You can all attack me with scripture if you like but I am going to do what I feel God wants me to do after all I am the one who will face him for the decisions I make not any of you....

 

There are people out here who do understand....we can all quote scripture, but until you are in another's place you really can't understand....I learned that....when I use to say I know how you feel, I really didnt' cause I had never been there.....and I am not attacking those who quote the scripture....I think we all know what it says even those who arent' saved....and if you are so unhappy how can you serve God....you can't not to me anyway.....hope I did not offend anyone not my intention......God bless you all.
Response
Yes, we ALL will do what is in our hearts to do whether it is in line with the Word of God or not and yes, we each will stand before God for those choices we make. Some of the choices we make that ARE in line with God's Word/Will will be things that do NOT make us happy, yet what we will have is TRUE PEACE with God.

 

Some things we choose, on the other hand, will bring us "temporal" happiness, but we will not have TRUE peace with God if we are walking in opposition to His Word/Will. Jesus said that those who seek to save their lives(live for themselves, not for Him) will LOSE their lives. He also said that those who LOSE their lives (live for Him, not themselves) will save their lives.

 

If we are to have the mindset that only when we are "happy" can we serve God, I would ask you this: How did/do those who are living under severe persecution LIVE for God---being that they are surely not "happy"? The truth of the matter is that those who have sacrificed their own happiness/desires/wants in favor of following the Lord even into dangerous/life threatening situations where there is no "happiness", have done more for the kingdom of God than all the "happy" Christians put together.

 

Lest I be seen as a "martyr wanna be", that is not my mindset either. I don't believe in self-flagellation (punishing/inflicting pain on oneself to prove their worthiness before God), but what I do see in scripture is that the God, the One True God, does not guarantee "happiness" in this life, nor is it His intended purpose for those who follow Him. What He desires is obedience and trust in whatever situation He has allowed into our lives..........and yes, I believe God does allow first spouses that are 'not good'.......but what He desires for those who name His name is to see beyond their situation, to BELIEVE IN HIM and to TRUST in HIM-----that with obedience, trust and faith, that the Lord CAN change a marriage----in HIS TIME, not ours. Our good and reasonable service to Him is to follow Him----NO MATTER WHAT WE SEE BEFORE US in the physical realm.

 

Comment/question
I believe it's appalling that someone would tell a woman that God will release her from an abusive marriage IF and ONLY IF her husband sleeps with another woman. And it's even more appalling to tell her that God sentences her to a life of condemnation, loneliness, and single parenthood (if there were children from the first marriage) because of the actions of her abusive husband. Actions that she had no control over.

 

We have to understand the heart of God before we can truly understand his Word. The Pharisees' biggest problem was they did not understand the heart of God. They knew the letter of the Law but they refused to listen to Jesus when he tried to explain the reasons BEHIND the Law. Christians today who quote scripture without attempting to understand the reason behind it ARE being like the Pharisees. It's an ugly truth but it's there. God himself knows I've been guilty of it, and he knows I still feel the grief in my spirit like a knife when I remember the times I've sat in judgment and condemnation over others when I whole-heartedly believed I was rightly dividing his Word. Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Response
To apply the Word of God in our lives BECAUSE we understand His very heart on the issue IS important. I agree. I do find it quite ironic that the two sides of this issue think the other side does not understand God's heart, therefore is walking in opposition to His Will. One or both sides are wrong.

 

Those who say the no remarriage camp is without "grace/judgmental, etc" towards those who decide remarriage is ok--------can I ask if you feel that those who decide to "move on" ARE filled with Grace, mercy, etc toward the spouse who offended them? Does not Mt. 12:7 spoken by the Lord, apply to them who are caught up in their sin? Are they not in need of "Grace and Mercy"..............as all of us were when we were walking in darkness or is Grace and Mercy only extended to the "nice/"innocent"? Why is it that in other "hard" things we will stand up and say "yes Lord, we will do this because you told us to!", yet, when the Lord says "if a woman departs, she MUST REMAIN UNMARRIED OR BE RECONCILED and A HUSBAND MUST NOT PUT AWAY HIS WIFE" (I Cor. 7:10-12)..........many say, "well, I have EXTENUATING circumstances, the Lord will understand"............Will He?

 

There are many today who are painting a truly false picture of our Saviour..........When He came the first time it was to SAVE.............WHEN He comes again, it will be to judge sin. We must remember that and that BECAUSE OF SIN, many, many will perish----eternally (Eph. 5:1-10, Rev. 11:15-18). When we preach the Gospel, we need to preach ALL of it----including God's judgment of sin/rebellion/disobedience.

 

Comment/question
The position of opposition to remarriage is not pure. It supposes sin on the innocent and questions the motives and hearts of those involved.
Response
Not at all. The opposition to remarriage while one has a living spouse is due to scripture reaffirming this position. As to the "innocent", there are many innocent who suffer by following God's Will for their lives, rather than living for themselves. We are all called to FORGIVE those who offend us and use us. We are called to PRAY for them and not retaliate. Is having our hands bound (not being able to retaliate), fair---in the minds of man? Yet this is exactly what followers of Jesus are called to----even if we suffer in the temporal we are promised a reward eternally.

 

Comment/question
The position of opposition to remarriage is not gentle. It is legalistic and unwarranted binding.
Response
So is calling a person who names the name of Christ to break off a long term relationship the Lord calls sin----whether it be pre-marital relations, homosexual relations, or adulterous relations----especially if children are involved. Some seem to draw the line at adultery, yet that is not the line the Lord draws for those who profess to know Him and follow Him..........He calls ALL who desire to follow Him to REPENT. It is not "legalistic", it is what God commands and it is our "reasonable service".

 

Comment/question
The position of opposition to remarriage is not reasonable. It goes against every concept of repentance and forgiveness given in the Scriptures.
Response
No, it does not go against scripture, it goes against man's reasonings of "fairness" and judgment of another person's sins against them. Man is quick to judge those who sin against him while many times not seeing his own fault/sin against others. As I said, self-justification in the Western Church is VERY prevalent, while forgiveness and not counting other's sins against them SHOULD be what prevails in the life of a believer.

 

Comment/question
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice"
Response
Malachi 2:13-17

 

13 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand.

 

14 "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
 

How does the priest in the above scripture "get right" with God? He is already covering the altar with his tears, yet the Lord rejects him? The Lord speaks of the 1st wife as the wife of the covenant, yet we do not see such speech concerning the 2nd? Why is that? I believe it is due to this truth: Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39.........

 

Comment/question
You spiritualize this matter beyond what God does, in that the man and woman promise each other to keep themselves for each other. God witnesses this promise between the two people and endorses their union with His blessing while they keep those promises.
Response
I realize you believe I spiritualize this topic. I did previously see things "somewhat" as you do.

 

I believe as I've sought the Lord on this issue, He has greatly opened up my eyes to not only what the written Word states, and where many Pastors are contradictory/hypocritical in their teachings/practices on this issue, but what is His very heart on this issue. The fact remains that many proponents of the "lawfulness" of remarriage while one has a living spouse cannot explain away the meaning of Rom. 7:2-3 though I've seen many "words" on it. Go through commentaries and see what you find. Either they gloss right over it(saying that this is not a teaching on marriage)or skip those verses entirely. Why is that?

 

The truth is that Paul was addressing CHRISTIANS, not Jews living under the law. He again spoke of the permanency of marriage in I Cor. 7:39----again, to a CHRISTIAN audience. After a full discourse on marriage, he never once mentions it to be ok to remarry while one had a living spouse. Even in I Cor. 7:15, we cannot find such an allowance, though many "infer" that is what Paul meant, though he used a different word for "bondage" than he used in his teachings on the marriage "bond".

 

Then we go to Herod/Herodias----she divorced her husband Philip (the historical account of that relationship can be found in the writings of Josephus). Her divorce did not dissolve her marriage to Philip. Her remarriage (adultery/incestual relationship) to Herod did not dissolve her marriage to Philip. John clearly states that Herod HAS Philip's wife. This aligns with Paul's teachings in Rom. 7:2-3, which states that if a woman marries another while her husband is living, she SHALL be called an adulteress. Herodias was Philip's wife, not Herod's wife---in spite of the divorce, in spite of the remarriage (adultery)-----which also lines up with Jesus' teachings that if one divorces and remarries they commit adultery or if one marries one divorced, they commit adultery (because the Lord has not "loosed" the bond between the lawful couple.

 

Comment/question
Ok, then how do you explain David eating the showbread against the explicit written law of God? David was well aware of this law. Should he have even asked? Shouldn't he have refused the bread and held the Priest accountable for even allowing him to have it? After all, the Priest giving it to him was violating the law and David taking and eating it was him acting in disobedience to the law.

 

I Samuel 21. 6. So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the showbread, that was taken from before the Lord, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.
MATTHEW 12: 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungered, and they that were with him;
4. How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5. Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
6. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Response
For me I cannot help but seeing something significant here: who gave David the bread? The high priest of God. Who in the OT was placed as intercessor between man and God---the high priest. Because the high priest was "blameless" in the sight of God, he could decide to do something against the ceremonial law for the good of a man.

 

In the NT, who is our high priest? Jesus Christ. What does He state concerning the use of marriage? Do we ever see Him "loosen" His intentions concerning marriage for mankind.......If we did see the high priest(Jesus) do so, you may have a point, yet I do not see that found in the NT----where Jesus "loosens" any of the moral laws due to sin. David did not sin by being hungry...........People do not sin by being lonely.........they CAN sin however due to actions stemming from hunger(stealing) or actions stemming from lonliness(adultery). I do not see anywhere in scripture where Jesus gives a piece of "showbread" (a temporary fix for hunger)to a person who is lonely due to a divorce/sinning spouse, etc. He does something much better though----He gives PEACE and COMFORT that surpasses all understanding and He give eternal HOPE.

 

Comment/question
What does "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" mean to you? In what areas are we supposed to apply this?
Response
It means the same thing as "Obedience is better than sacrifice"..........Many will offer up sacrifices to the Lord in many different forms, but will not obey Him in the hard thing He is commanding. He doesn't want the sacrifices as shown in Mal. 2.........

 

I am seriously not understanding why some demand "mercy" for the offended, but that same mercy is not willing to be applied towards the present offense. The thing is that we are called to forgive others as we have been forgiven. How much more so a covenant spouse----the one the LORD joined us to?

 

I also don't understand how it is that when we look truly at most troubled marriages, we find that the one presently "offended" many times is reaping what they themselves have sown into the marriage.............yet, they blame their spouse because somehow their sin is worse???? Now all of a sudden THEY have just cause for divorce and ultimately to find another? Can you explain that to me?

 

Comment/question
the law to love one another as Christ loves us. What reason would there be for a new commandment if we were still under the old?

 

Did Jesus' death on the cross not free us from all manner of bondage?
Response
The cross freed us from the bondage TO SIN, not to give us freedom to continue to walk in disobedience in regards to the Laws of God. Jesus very clearly in Luke 16:16-18 tells us what His mind is on covenant marriage............and He placed great emphasis on the "law" of God that does not change------marriage to another who is already married in the sight of God(irregardless of a divorce) is adultery. Immediately before addressing the laws of God that never change, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees who justify themselves before men, yet their hearts were an abomination to God.

 

For those who believe that obedience is "legalism", what do you make of this passage? Why is verse 18 stuck in there? Just a coincidence?

 

Comment/question
There are very very few spirit filled people around who have fully committed their lives to God and are able or willing to follow Christ's will. If they were, we might see more single workers for the kingdom.
So. now what????
Response
There needs to be a REVOLUTION in the churches ---otherwise, nothing will change, except that more and more sin will be allowed in the camp and we will become more and more desensitized to evil works of the flesh. If we SEE sin in our camps, it needs to be dealt with---that dealing with includes not only a change of mind towards that sin, but forsaking those sins we are guilty of---as that is the "fruit" of repentance.

 

In Ezra 9-10, there was a GREAT revolution. God's judgment was upon that nation because they had forsaken HIS commandments. Notice that His favor was not restored with confession of sorrow at having departed from HIS ways........it took ACTION on their parts to restore a right relationship with the Lord.

 

Read Mal. 2:6-17. There are many different things to point out in that passage, but take particular notice of verse 13----sorrow, weeping, etc do not satisfy the Lord. He rejects such. Yet, today, this is being taught in the churches as true repentance. Notice in verse 14 the wife of his youth IS the wife of covenant, not was........so now what. See in todays' church, it is taught that "ok, you did commit adultery when you remarried (many churches will admit this), now you need to acknowledge this to the Lord and from this point on, live for Him----treat this NEW wife as a covenant wife".......Is that what people take away from Mal. 2 as what will then satisfy the Lord and allow our "offerings" to be acceptable to Him?

 

Today, many in the churches are being taught and have examples set for them that they can disobey the commands of God and STILL get to keep the "fruit" of disobedience if they only are "sorry"........but they are not consistent in this teaching. Again, inconsistent application and hypocrisy rears it's head. If we steal something from work, confess it to our brethren........the counsel would be to return it. When we take someone else's wife or husband (adultery, in the Lord's sight), we say we can "keep" that which is STILL NOT OURS because we said "sorry". Why is the church using different weights and measures concerning sin and the application of true repentance? We know what the Lord says about such practices..........

 

There are many who are saying "do not judge", yet in I Cor. 5 we ARE told to judge WITHIN the camp. There are many who are saying "The Lord Jesus' Blood covers me if I am in adultery".......yet the Lord says, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in rememberance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not".......Jude verses 4-5.

 

And this: "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols, and I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not, Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. and I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he that searches the reins and hearts; and I will give unto every one of YOU according to your works..Rev. 2:19-23.

 

and this: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication that every one of your should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour, not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God; That no man go beyond and DEFRAUD his brother in ANY manner; because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

 

How many in the "church" today are defrauding their brothers/sisters? Many are taking each others husbands and wives as their own.

 

If I have spoken falsely, may the Lord correct me and show me truth. But if I have spoken truly and in the Will of the Lord, may He open the eyes of the blind and help all of us to walk in accordance to His will for HIS glory. Amen.

 

Comment/question
If you in your judging cause one to give up or fall, guess what you also will be held accountable for that child falling.
Response
Truthfully, do you apply this reasoning to ALL sinful relationships? What if an elder told a man to quit his sin who had been conducting an extramarital affair for 20 years, had 5 children as a result of this relationship, etc...........and that caused the man great grief and turmoil? What if it caused him to stumble and "give up" on the Christian life? How about the homosexual couple who is legally married? They have 2 kids together. Appealing to them to repent of their sinful relationship would be a hard, hard thing, no? Would you counsel them to do such a thing?

 

Is ANYTHING to hard to give up when the Lord demands it? I don't believe so, for those who really love the Lord. Those who love Him and trust Him, will not "turn away" when what He speaks is too hard. Though they may cry and mourn what is asked of them (and maybe ignore what He asks at first), they have faith to know the Lord knows best...........they ultimately will Trust Him and follow. There is no other way for the one who is TRULY being conformed into His image.

 

Comment/question
Truthfully and quite honestly totally different circumstances, nothing you have said or quoted has proven your point about remarriage being continual "living in adultery". The above examples are clearly sinful behaviour. And yes I would counsel them to leave that sinful situation.
Response
Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39. That is about as clearly laid out as anything. Paul gives the example of a woman who has remarried. He calls her an adulteress. He then says that she will be bound to her husband (the first one) until he dies...............THEN, she will be free to marry another. Death breaks the bond of marriage. Notice nowhere in that passage does Paul state divorce or adultery or remarriage ends the first marriage.

 

When Jesus says that to marry a divorced person is to commit adultery----by that very definition He is saying that if you marry someone, you are committing adultery with another person's husband/wife. Marriage then=adultery, not a God joined union. The very act of marriage in those cases is taking to yourself another man's wife/another woman's husband. If that relationship turns lawful sometime in the future, outside of the lawful spouse's death, wouldn't we see that somewhere?

 

Comment/question
However, you cannot convince me that God in all his wisdom did not know that that some christians would divorce and remarry and not provide for forgiveness in his grace.
God loves us and is looking for ways to bring us into fellowship not push us away. God is not looking for ways to keep us out of heaven as some on here would like to believe.....
Response
You have not shown how the adultery changes into a lawful marriage, honored by God. All we see in scripture is Jesus and Paul saying such relationships are sinful. You apply grace to them, but not other illicit relationships. I too believe that God is not trying to keep some out of heaven, but you are contradictory on how you apply His grace. He wants people to DEPART from illicit relationships-----all of them and come follow Him. His grace is sufficient. Jesus said His way was the "narrow" path and few would find it. Many have tried to make His way WIDE, but that is not biblically accurate. Just as many of the disciples turned away from Him (Jn. 6:65-68) when things got too hard to take, so it will be in this present age. Never did Jesus 'water down" truth to win souls to Himself. He spoke truth and those who wanted it, continued to follow Him. Those who thought what He taught/commanded was too hard, turned away.......
some indignant, some sad...........

 

Comment/question
Please stop the judging...

.

Answer this question from your heart, do you think God loves it when you judge others?
Response
God tells us to JUDGE each other-----those who call themselves "brother" and "sister", not the world though(I Cor. 5). What He tells us NOT to do is judge while we are in sinful situations ourselves (judging in hypocrisy in other words---Mt. 7). How we are to "judge" is with gentleness, longsuffering and the measuring stick of our judgments is THE WORD OF GOD---TRUTH. We are NOT to judge/apply judgments based upon emotion, personal situations which contradict God's Will for us, etc. Judging righteous judgment does not mean that one must first have to suffer a particular situation in order to know how rightly counsel with the mind/heart of God..........It means that when we judge, it is in perfect alignment with His Word----which shows us His heart/motivations concerning His commandments for those who say they are followers. Many of His commands may seem "unfair, hard to handle, etc", but He knows what WILL produce fruit for the kingdom's sake. The Lord, while He cares for our "earthly life", looks beyond that, desiring eternal rewards for those who follow Him.

 

Comment/question
It is erroneous for you to think that a person who is divorced (whether remarried or not) does not believe in "till death do us part." Again, you don't know all the facts.
Response
I'm sorry if I've given that impression. I've never stated that divorced people do not believe in "til death do us part". I happen to know many who are divorced that are "remaining unmarried" in hopes of reconciling with their wayward spouse (I Cor. 7:10-12). They do believe in "til death do us part".

 

Also, I would never think of someone as an adulterer/adulteress unless I knew all the facts of their marital history as well as their partner's history. Divorce and remarriage is SO common now, that one needs to know all the facts concerning Past marriages to know who really is "bound" to whom in the Lord's eyes. So many single people end up marrying divorced persons, against scriptural admonishments, that there now is a HUGE mess to untangle when one comes to the realization they are living in disobedience and sin---in the Lord's sight. It truly is heartbreaking to see and hear of all the situations out there.

 

Comment/question
I just hope those who experience this will be able to find their way out from under this spirits judgment and burdensome demands learning to really live according to God's spirit and according to His word.
Response
For those who love the Lord, it is not burdensome to stop committing adultery. Will it "hurt" to leave a relationship one is entangled in? I'm sure it will. However, when the Lord said my "burden is light" He meant that following Him will bring a peace, joy. It is when we refuse to release our bondages(sin) and try to cling on to them, that there is a "burden" felt........a pulling from both sides. When one lets Go and lets God be God in one's life, His burden is light. Those of us who speak against adultery, whether it be extramaritally or through a remarriage, desire those in this type of bondage to walk free in the Lord. Remaining/continuing in adultery is NOT walking in the Spirit. If I was in error/blindness, I would want someone to tell me. Later, after I repented, I would know that those who spoke truth to me were the ones who really LOVED me----by the Spirit.

 

Comment/question
You are in absolutely no place to judge anybody on the motives of their choices. They stand before the Lord. They are HIS servants and before HIM they will stand or fall not anybody else.
Response
"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins."......James 5:6

Some of us believe this word spoken above and take it to heart greatly. Many of us spend much time here, not to argue, but to save any brethren who err--------because we care. It is the truth.

 

Comment/question
1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
Everybody has sinned and comes short, even you. The difference is it's easy for you to point to other people's "sin" and not your own which may not be visible to the eye (but I sure do pick it up in your words). Just know, that how you have judge and condemned and guilted women or men to endure the sin against them and created fear of condemnation, please know that one day, the GOOD LORD above, will take that same measure of "mercy" and "grace" you gave to others when He is judging you. I hope you REALLY think about that and realize how profound that is. What a dangerous place to place ourselves in huh?

 

Where he had threatened my life and was restricted by the law to come even NEAR me for 6 months, he now is welcome in my home and we are at peace. No, we will not ever be married again or have a romantic relationship again, but if the above isn't forgiveness and reconciliation I'm not sure what it is.
Response
As for your assertion that I or (name deleted) is "judgmental" in an ungodly way, I believe you are very wrong about that----and cannot justify such a position against us using scripture to do so. Paul was very clear that the church IS to judge sin--------not to ignore it, because if we do, it will GROW (I Cor. 5). I think there is clear evidence of that truth in the rates of divorce/remarriage we are seeing today in the "church". Because the sin is being ignored, it is growing. Those who are calling sin sin, are now being labeled as "judgmental" in order to silence. It's a shame to see. Many of the quoted pastors of old would not even be welcome in many churches today because they dealt hard with sin---in the Body of Christ. Many today would label such preachers as Spurgeon, Whitfield, etc as "zealots"-------lacking Grace and being pharisaical because they called people from their sin.

 

Concerning the passages you posted from Matthew 7, they are dealing with HYPOCRISY, not the naming of sin. We are to FIRST get rid of the sin that besets us so that we can THEN, help those who are in sin. Jesus called the Pharisees ADULTERERS..........HYPOCRITES. They were guilty of the very sins they were accusing others of. Hypocrisy was what Jesus was dealing with in Matthew 7 and also brought forth the concept of repenting oneself so that we are in the position to help others. One who is caught up in sin can not be effective in helping another out of sin----the blind leading the blind..........or when such a one comes forth with "correction", they will be rebuked/rebuffed due to their own unrepented sin seen by all.

 

These are my thoughts on the discussing of what GOD says on the matter of divorce/remarriage is not being condemning: If one feels "condemned" due to another's belief on what scripture states, then I would say there may be conviction/confusion that needs to be looked into and not disregarded. I have heard many things (beliefs) in my Christian walk which did not line up with my own beliefs and I did/do not feel "condemned". I either am fully persuaded to the contrary due to my own deep study on the issue, or if I am not studied and feel "urged", I go to the Lord's Word and seek out the truth.

 

As to your belief of forgiveness and reconciliation/lack of reconciliation within a marital relationship, yes, we believe VERY differently. I view a refusal to reconcile with a spouse (a covenant spouse) WHO IS REPENTANT----as unforgiveness----and we all know what Jesus said about those who will not forgive others their debts. One can "package" their own form of reconciliation/forgiveness however they want to, but unless it is the type of forgiveness that the Lord extends, it is a facade.

 

Concerning covenant marriage, our views are quite difference, hence our view on reconciliation would be different as well, I suppose. You seem to view marriage as something that "should be lifelong"...........I view marriage as truly being lifelong, no matter what(" for better/worse/sickness(mental or physical)/health/richer/poorer-----til death do us part"). That's why I view refusal to reconcile with a truly repentant spouse as unforgiveness towards the spouse and rebellion against the Lord. It seems many choose to "forgive" according to their own understanding/desires on how forgiveness should be lived out with the other half of the "ONE FLESH".


For those who do not claim to know Jesus, this conduct I understand. What I don't understand is when I see it coming from those who profess to love the Lord dearly with all their heart, but who refuse to EVER reconcile with the one the Lord joined them to----even if they SEE a huge change in their spouse. That mindset I don't understand in a Christian.

 

Comment/question
I think we need to remember that divorce is not always a sin, but marriage while a spouse/ex-spouse lives is sin.
Response
I'd have to say because of the way most look at divorce(not as a separation, but as a dissolving of the marriage bond), I could never counsel anyone to divorce. I do believe separation may be necessary in some cases. I also want to say that I do not believe all who are divorced are in sin for the divorce, so I hope I have not given that impression. Many do not want to be divorced, yet their spouses divorced them anyways. Some, after a divorce end up repenting of their sins and wish for reconciliation, but the offended spouse refuses to reconcile. That is so sad to me.

 

As you said, which I am in agreement----remarriage is what I have issue with. I can't see any way biblically for someone to remarry without committing adultery while having a living spouse. What God joins together remains such until one of the parties dies.

 

Comment/question
Again, I say, I hate when we lump every DIVORCEE as an adulterer. That's not what Christ taught.
Response
I don't think any of us lumps all divorcees as adulterers, because they are not. The only ones who would be adulterers in the Lord's eyes according to HIS Word, are those who join themselves with others while they have a living covenant spouse. That point was being discussed in the previous posts. In Mt. 5:32, the GUILTY (the one divorced for marital infidelity) is STILL not released to be join with another. Why? Because the covenant of marriage stands until one of the marriage partners die (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).

 

Comment/question
Ok, here we go again lumping all divorcee/remarried folks as being without love, etc.
There is no place here for those who left abusive/violent spouses to protect themselves as much as is possible. you're even lumping folks with the Pharisee.
Response
No, I don't lump all people together. Some divorcees had divorce forced on them by spouses who were unforgiving and hardhearted. Some divorced out of safety need, but know they are bound til death to the one God joined them to. Some divorce and then remarry out of ignorance. They simply do not know the scriptures and go by whatever seems accepted by the masses and their pastors. They don't go to the Word and to the Lord in prayer for themselves, they trust their lives in the hands of others. They receive BAD counsel, counsel that appeases the "flesh"-----for a time. The thing is that appeasing the flesh is what the Pharisees sought to do-----they couldn't/wouldn't see that this was what they were doing, just as many today do not have eyes to see that they too are going the path of the Pharisee.

 

The Pharisees wanted to sin and justify it with the law. The Standers are wanting to see their spouses repent, because they LOVE and desire the family that GOD gave them. Do you see them justifying something they want to do using the "law" to do so? Or do you see them walking in the Spirit, LOVING and desiring the repentance of those who are in error----even though they are reviled by their spouses, mocked, and in some cases even put out of their church? Seems to me such peoples are seeking to do the Will of the Father concerning their marriages and are suffering for righteousness' sake.
Comment/question
The One-flesh doctrine as you interpret it is the same context as when Prayed that his disciples would be one like he and the father are one. I have told you that there are many, many church folks who are living as divorced (and have been for years) but refused to be accused of divorcing. One lives in separate state/house/town with no hope/desire to reconcile. And you've no answer for this and this is good/better than actually being divorced???
Response
Yes, it is better than being divorced. The reason they don't divorce because they KNOW it is wrong in the sight of God...........and they don't want to go ALL the way in their sin(even if they don't realize that is what they are doing, deep down inside). Probably in the back of their minds they wonder if possibly something will happen-----either the death of their spouse(freeing them) and in some cases hoping one of them will change and become a Godly person. Whatever the case is, not divorcing IS a good thing, because the "world" says, "you're divorced, you can move on now"..........but something in many of them says otherwise.

 

I really don't understand what your point is here, though. Did you expect me to say that just because a person's heart is not right IN a marriage, then it is better for them to depart their marriage? I don't understand that reasoning-----at all.

 

Comment/question
If scripture says that someone is committing adultery, then the most loving thing you can do is tell them and encourage them to repent. To comfort someone in rebellion against God is the most hateful thing a person can do.
Response
I agree because that is what scripture teaches.

 

BROTHER, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of h is way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

 

Comment/question
All they want is a little peace on this side of heaven.
Response
Many times we find "war" because we ourselves are in rebellion. We falsely assume we can find "peace" with a person---so we seek those who do not yet "push our buttons"........notice I say "YET". TRUE Peace is only found with God. That is the only peace worth having on this side of heaven.
Comment/question
Where is the compassionate Lord here??? Is he not the same yesterday, today and forever. Did he lose compassion for suffering people after Christ and say we need to learn to suffer some MORE???
Response
The higher way is to seek OTHERS good...........not one's own. I'm sure many of those who separated/divorced their covenant spouses are not the only ones suffering. Many of the "left" spouses are suffering as well as the children whose family has been ripped apart................yet, the focus many times remains on "self".........not the children, not the other spouse, not the other person in the picture and God's best for them.........it is purely "SELF". Is this God? I dont' believe so.
Comment/question
This is again a blatant sweeping generality. These families are torn apart long before the divorce. Some houses are war zones inside and divorce finally brings peace.
Response
You are correct in that there is a separation of sorts when there is "war" in the home. I understand the mindset that divorce brings peace, but as Blessed says, REAL peace comes from obeying the voice of the Lord. If the Lord states that if a woman departs, her options are to remain unmarried or be reconciled........if she does otherwise, she will be in sin. Divorce does not equal dissolving of the marriage (as we see in I Cor. 7:10-11)-----hence the "unmarried" statement.

 

I have noticed many times that people say "if a man WAS saved, he wouldn't do such and such"----thus they say that such a person is NOT saved----- and so they use I Cor. 15 to enter into another marriage(which Paul never gave permission for in the first place).

 

The thing is that Paul did acknowledge that there will be times when CHRISTIANS(real or just professing) can not dwell together, hence the acknowledgment that reconciliation MAY not occur..........that does not however, waive the previous commandment to "remain unmarried".......

 

You are correct in that there is a separation of sorts when there is "war" in the home. I understand the mindset that divorce brings peace, but as Blessed says, REAL peace comes from obeying the voice of the Lord. If the Lord states that if a woman departs, her options are to remain unmarried or be reconciled........if she does otherwise, she will be in sin. Divorce does not equal dissolving of the marriage (as we see in I Cor. 7:10-11)-----hence the "unmarried" statement.

I have noticed many times that people say "if a man WAS saved, he wouldn't do such and such"----thus they say that such a person is NOT saved----- and so they use I Cor. 15 to enter into another marriage(which Paul never gave permission for in the first place).

 

The thing is that Paul did acknowledge that there will be times when CHRISTIANS(real or just professing) can not dwell together, hence the acknowledgment that reconciliation MAY not occur..........that does not however, waive the previous commandment to "remain unmarried".......

 

Comment/question
Well you know what? When someone wants to justify their disobedience to Christ's teaching, they conveniently leave out the very words of Christ, words like "except for immorality".
Response
love suffers long...........love seeks not its own.........love bears all things, believes all things, hopes in all things, endures all things..............

 

LOVE NEVER FAILS (I Cor. 13)

 

When we look for an "out"............we must ask ourselves this: concerning an erring spouse..........are we LOVING them by any actions taken against them(ie; divorce to "free" ourselves and in our hearts the desire to hook up with another)? Are we loving our neighbor(covenant spouse/parent of our children) as ourself, because if we truly are a Christian, this IS what we are called to do----LOVING to the point of sacrificing/putting down our own "wants"?

 

On the other side of the coin, if we became entrenched in sin(ensnared by the devil), would we want others in our lives to slam the door shut on us, forever changing the nature of our relationship.........OR would we be ever so thankful for those who LOVED us through our sin, praying for us, weeping for us, WAITING for us to repent and come home?

 

Which type of "love" reflects the love of Christ? It's not a hard thing to discern........

 

Ps. I have seen the "fruit" of those who have LOVED through adultery............the husband left home, moved away with the other woman..............and she stood fast, loving her husband from afar.............he eventually came back to the "light" and came back home. They now have a beautiful ministry and marriage------their story correctly represents the LOVE of Christ to those around them. She didn't "replace" her sinning husband, she wanted to be like Jesus and wanted her family WHOLE, so she loved, prayed, and waited. Jesus died for us yet WHILE WE WERE SINNERS.............He didn't wait til we cleaned up our act to love us, He loved us Through our sin, and then we came to LOVE HIM because He loved us.................

 

Comment/question
And divorce is not an indication of sin on the part of the divorced. There are some very married people who are immoral. There are some very divorced people who did no wrong in their marriage.
Response
 I think I've made it clear in previous threads, (name deleted), that some who are divorced, it was out of necessity of safety, etc. However, the divorce did not dissolve what God joined together, it merely, in the sight of God, is a separation of bed and board for a time, or for some unfortunately, it is permanent(I Cor. 7:10-11).
Comment/question
And sometimes, He grows us through fire. We are not grown through complacency and peace. God knows that we grow closer to Him and grow in our faith when it is tested. And some of us have done that growing. And because I TRULY belong to the Lord, I have not been content with simple milk of Scripture for decades. I go after the meat of Scripture and a deeper walk. And I yearn to understand not only the surface of His Word, but its length and depth and breadth.
Response
We must be very sure that we do not go around the fire, but through it. Many think that God spares them from the fire (or they think they may get singed, but they do not have to go through it). Real kingdom rewards come from ENDURING, not cutting and running, seeking a "better" life in the here and now. If God has allowed suffering in our lives, there is reason. Many do not want to endure suffering, but to have it end as soon as possible so they can "get on with their lives" in a way THEY deem "good". They do not realize that what they are doing WILL effect their eternal destiny as well as the eternal destinies of others. We are to be kingdom minded, not earthly minded------IF we are true believers. The "fruit" of divorce/remarriage in the confessing "church" shows me...................and the world, what we are seeking after and it's not of benefit to the kingdom of God.
Comment/question
No, deep down in our hearts those of us that have suffered from divorce, and especially those that were not of our own doing, know that it is horrible, painful, and to be avoided if at all possible. It is not right that at times one spouse acts immorally and victimizes the other spouse. It is right if that victim seeks their own protection. And it is right that God sees the believer through to the other side and their faith has grown because of the experience.
Response
See, I don't see anything wrong in most this part of your post. It is truth. What is not truth is thinking that one is "free" to move on to other relationships when GOD has not dissolved the marriage one was in. To me, if one does move on, they have NOT got to the other side. Those who have made it to the "other side" see the offender in the marriage as God does (and they also see their own sin which may have had a part in the other's sin). And if one does truly get to the other side, leaving that spouse and moving on is the farthest thing from their mind. What is on their mind is to LOVE them as Jesus loves the "offended" one...........or as He loves any of us(while we were YET sinners). As (name deleted) has said, Jesus goes after the LOST sheep..............he doesn't get a "new sheep" and say, "well, that was just one rebellious, sinful sheep. Think I'll get a newer/better one that will honor my shepherding better"..............If Jesus is not like that, and we claim to have Jesus IN US, why would we think it good to do other than He would do?

 

See, this is where I think you don't get it. I don't believe scripture ANYWHERE in the NT gives a believer RIGHTS not to be offended, sinned against, ect. What we ARE called to do is to LOVE those who offend us, hurt us, use us, treat us poorly, etc. Many in the Christian camp counsel others to love and forgive, but DO NOT do so concerning one's own spouse! That I just cannot reconcile with scripture. As I said, for a "Christian" to walk away from a marriage and move on leaves a horrible picture to the children of the marriage on the sanctity of marriage and sows seeds in them for the future in which THEY will be able to justify divorce instead of loving their spouses through their own personal sins..........................and I think I can CONFIDENTLY say:

 

THIS generation is reaping the destruction of family due to the PREVIOUS Generation's disregard for marriage............hence divorce is growing..................and in response to this, many people are now choosing rather to live in sin (fornication) rather than be one of the divorce statistics. It's all very sad and every single one of us has been negatively affected.

 

For some of the divorced/remarried, life may not seem so complicated. For most though, their lives are VERY complicated. I know because I read the posts here. The anger at the finances of the second family because the father has to pay for his first children.........anger at the "other" parent because they aren't parenting as good as the "replacement" parent, kids that resent the step-parent and what the step-parent should do, etc, etc. What a MESS!!! And when all the kids grow up, then the problems start of where to visit, when to visit, whom to invite, whom not to invite...............again, WHAT A MESS!

 

and still, you think it's good..............as long as the "i's" are dotted and "t's" crossed..........I don't understand that viewpoint at all---------and as I said, can't reconcile it with scripture, at all.

 

Comment/question
So are you saying you do not condemn those that truly believe that they are personally led to marry another?
Response
Neither you nor I have the power to "condemn" anyone. Sharing what one believes to be sin is not "condeming".............it very much is a loving thing to do as there are eternal consequences for continuing in adultery. (james 5:19-20)

 

Comment/question
The Pharisees liked to add to the law too... So they could appear Holier than the "sinners"....

 

Take the Word in context - in entirety.
Response
The Pharisees wanted to expand God's law on marriage so they could SIN MORE, not so they could appear more holy. Jesus clearly shows that their looking for "loopholes" showed where their hearts were..........and their hearts were NOT looking to do the Will of God, but to feed their flesh/emotions/etc.

 

Comment/question
I am done debating this one for awhile. Just be of care and not assign motivations to people. Most of the time, the assigned motivation for someone's actions has been off the mark.
Response
For me and others here, I'm sure many of us do not look at everyone as having horrible motives in getting divorced. Some do so to seek safety, some do so out of ignorance to what God's Word says/means, some do so because they feel they have no other option and that God will love them anyways. However, some do so disobediently and with ILL motive----knowing what the Lord has stated, yet wanting what they want---regardless of who it hurts (their children/spouse).

 

I think ultimately each who goes through a divorce really needs to check themselves as none of us can rightly ascribe motives to a person, all we can do is see the ACTIONS of a person and whether those actions line up with God's Word or not.

 

My husband recently brought to mind that passage about the two sons. One told his father he would do what was asked, the other balked. The one who said he would do it, did not do it..........the one who balked, did what was asked of him. Whose actions were more favorable in the Father's sight? Motive/intentions are all well and fine, but WHO is doing the Will of the Father? The ones who DO His will are those who are "doers of the Word" and not hearers only. The "Doers" are those who Jesus said love God ("if you love Me, obey Me"). So, if a motive causes one NOT to do the Will of God, it can't be a "good" motive, can it, no matter how well-intentioned WE think it may be?

Mt. 7:21-24 .

 

Comment/question
Can I ask all of you if you understand the difference between the old testament (law) and the new testament (grace/mercy)?]
Response
I believe in Grace. I believe instead of being stoned for adultery, the Lord extends LIFE, so one can forsake adultery and LIVE in Christ. That is Grace. However, if God, in the NT calls remarriage adultery---repentance from adultery means to forsake the sin..........the only way a second union can be adultery to the Lord is because He STILL observes the first as binding. One cannot say "sorry" and then go right back into the relationship the Lord calls sin-----that is not true repentance.

 

Comment/question
This thread is really unbelievable. What is the Spirit of God on all this?

Paul says to stay single if you CAN...

Response
Paul also teaches that men and women are to have their OWN spouses, not their brethren's/neighbor's spouses.

 

This is one part of this whole discussion that I see being left out-----where does God EVER give permission for one to take a brother's/sister's wife? If people are, in fact, in the Body of Christ is this not defrauding the brethren?

 

Jesus says to "love your neighbor as yourself"..........one of the 2 great commandments...........is it "love" to take one's spouse as their own? I don't believe so, and that is why Jesus called it adultery.

 

If one cannot remain "single" they SHOULD marry----their own wife or husband, not someone else's. By your reasoning, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, one CAN disobey the commands of the Lord in I Cor. 7:10 if they CAN'T remain unmarried. Is this what you believe, that for flesh's sake, it is ok to disobey the Lord's commands?
Comment/question
This lie you preach would damn a person to celibacy who CANNOT handle it by the words of our Lord and Paul.
Response
Sounds like you have more of a problem with God's command in I Cor. 7:10 than you do with those of us who believe Christians should obey Jesus, even if it means remaining "unmarried/celibate"..............

 

But, as we both know, Jesus already addressed that in Mt. 19:10, saying that only some would align themselves with His Will concerning this issue........and not those who "can" not, but those who WILL not. Big difference.

 

Comment/question
My second objection to your view has to do with practice or reality. Lets say a couple is divorced at a very young age. For the sake of example, let's say in their twenties. Suppose the man repeatedly cheats on his wife and is also abusive. Finally the big divorce happens. She is only 25 and there are no children born to them, although she desires to be a mother. You are saying she can't remarry in God's eyes and with his blessing until her scum of a husband dies. Correct ? Is this what you are saying ? How cruel is this. What if her husband lives to be 80 ? She must forgo a man's love and her to desire for motherhood because of a mistake at a young age. Give me a break. Even liars and theives get a better deal than that.
Response
What do you do then with I Corinthians 7:10? Do you discount this or do you only apply it to old ladies who can't have children any longer? See, some will say in regards to this passage that if a couple does not reconcile, then one must be an unbeliever, therefore this passage will not REALLY affect believers---or really anyone for that matter. The Lord knew some Christians would NOT be able to reconcile(due to one of the spouses disobedience/sin/rebellion)...........hence the admonishment to "remain unmarried". What if such a woman is young and has no children? Does her "flesh" desire rule over the Lord's commands concerning her marriage?

 

See, your argument is the same EXACT argument that homosexuals use to justify fornicating. They say they were BORN with these desires and that only a CRUEL God would prohibit them from entering into a relationship. They say that they are not interested in the opposite sex---that they are actually repulsive to them..........yet, most in the church today would say to them, "you may not be able to help your feelings, however, you do not have to fulfill the lust of the flesh that leads you to sin in the sight of the Lord". However, they see people in the church telling heterosexuals that in THEIR case, the Lord is merciful and they dont' have to remain "unmarried"-----because the "burn", they can get married to another. In other words, heterosexuals are given a license to commit adultery, but homosexuals are denied the same license to fornicate. Do you see the problem? The Lord is opening the eyes of MANY today to see this hypocrisy the "church" is perpetrating, and I for one am glad that the Lord showed me this because it has made my committment to my own marriage that much greater---no matter what may come in the future, I will love my husband as the Lord loves me (I Cor. 13). It also has shown me that the Lord truly is NO respector of persons----hetero or homosexual, male or female, etc. Blessings.........

 

Comment/question
With saying someone has to never marry again because of what someone else did, you are saying that person has to pay the price for another's sin.

I find it sad that the way someone supports this point of view, you seem highly judgmental of someone that is remarried. I can't help but wonder how that person is treated in person. It seems like it could be very harsh and unforgiving.
Response
Most of us who believe in the permanency of marriage have people in our lives that we LOVE who are in adulterous unions. I have family members...........and no, I am not "harsh" with them, but they do know how I view marriage and that my standard is based on God's Word, not emotions, how the world looks on marriage, etc.

The problem that you seem to be having is not with our views, but in reality with what the Word of God teaches. Paul reaffirmed what the Lord taught: "if one does depart, they are to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled to their spouse." There is NO allowance to remarry. If one does, they will become an adulterer/adulteress (Rom.7:2-3) while their spouse lives. You may not think that 'fair' because one spouse may have caused the other to "depart" and the "guilty" will not repent, causing the other to have to "remain unmarried", but those are the very words of the Lord. We DO suffer because of others sins...........and their sins WILL affect our lives. That is the very nature of sin.

 

Comment/question
The LORD doesn't make decisions the way you do! People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at a person's thoughts and intentions
Response
Mt. 21:28 "What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29And he answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

Many have good "intentions" and will end up in eternal torment without Jesus........It is the one who actually DOES His will that will enter into eternity with Jesus(Mt. 7:13-14, 21-23)..........they may have messed up terribly in their lives, but they change their minds when they see their sin and then OBEY Jesus.

As to the not "judging":

James 5:19-20 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

Comment/question
So Jesus was speaking to them in their own oral Law in terms of its absolute reference, which was unyielding and does not change…15 because the law brings about wrath

….It had nothing to do with the Gospel message….other than those who are pressing into the kingdom of God..

But the problem is that both cannot exist together… because the law was there to show us transgression…. But in the Kingdom of God we are no appointed to wrath so the transgression of the law was removed….


In Luke 16… they were simply talking turkey.
Response
You can say it a 100 times, believing that God "winks" at willful sin or those sins committed in ignorance, but is still doesn't make it so. As to the "transgression of the law" being removed, where is that in scripture? I truly hope that you are not saying that it is ok for a TRUE believer to commit transgressions because true believers are not appointed to wrath .

Jesus CLEARLY says in Mt. 7 (speaking about the Judgment of the last day) that MANY shall come in His name............and He will cast them out of His presence, calling them "workers of iniquity/lawlessness".............The True Children of God will not rest on Grace to protect them from the effects of willful sin, they will desire to FLEE from sin, so they are not numbered with those whom the Lord will call: "workers of lawlessness". The "law" is good in that it STILL teaches us what is sin in the Lord's sight.

 

Comment/question
The thing is you quote Luke 16 out of context to fit a doctrine of legalism… as if the Kingdom of God is based on the legalist inheritance. Which is not…it is Faith based, Followers of Christ are followers in the Faith that Christ’s’ sacrifice was sufficient to cause one to stop sinning, by the forgiveness of all sin that is not practiced.
Response
How can a passage be "out of context" when it is quoted word for word? I think you need to further ponder what Jesus said to His disciples before He ascended to the Father:

Mt. 28:19-20----"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations......................teaching them to OBEY all things that I have commanded you.................

Jesus said:
"it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void. Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

You are saying the opposite of what Jesus said, that the Law has become void...........that it is ok for a so-called disciple of Christ to KEEP another man's wife/another woman's husband as their own----though the Lord Himself calls such unions ADULTERY. You are leading others astray.

 

Comment/question
NO sin is greater than any other, Cindy. If you judge your brethren according to the auspices of the Law, then be prepared to receive that SAME level of judgement when your day comes, sister. God has not appointed you nor the other marriage idolators to execute His judgement!
Response
I will be held to the same standard as all believers are, (Name Deleted). I expect no less, nor do I think it right to "excuse" our pet sins. We are called to REPENT of our sins as they become known to us, not excuse them away.

 

Comment/question
Cindy, are you REALLY prepared to answer to the Lord under the authority of Matt.7?????

Matt. 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Response
Yes, I am prepared to undergo the same judgment. I have noticed that many today, including the world, like to quote part of this passage. I call it the "shut up" passage. People do not want to hear about sin, so they will try to make the one addressing it stop talking about the said sin/sins, by pointing a finger in the direction of the addresser. The thing is, Chaplain, Jesus does not tell us NOT to judge. We are actually CALLED to judge those who profess Christ who are committing immoral acts(I Cor. 5:9-13).

What Jesus DOES tell us to do is to make sure that we do not approach another in HYPOCRISY. That is what the Pharisees were doing------they were guilty of adultery, yet they were judging adulterers. They were greedy, yet they were judging the tax collectors................

 

Comment/question
The Law is for the lawbreakers. That is the one who caused the divorced. A man can cheat on a woman and refuse to stop and she files for divorce. She is not the lawbreaker, he is. That is very important. You can't create a doctrine that binds a woman or man to a person that hates them. If their spouse is hard-hearted, why would you create a teaching that says they can't be freed ever?
Response
You know what? YOU can't dissolve the law of marriage just because you think it unfair. God, the Lord God Almighty is the creator of marriage. How one feels/doesn't feel toward their spouse is not what defines the marriage covenant. It has to do with obedience to THE LORD. If one doesn't "like" their spouse, then if they belong to the Lord, they need to get on their face before Him and ask Him for the power to LOVE their spouse as Jesus loves the Church....................and they need to KEEP on their face until it happens-----no matter how long it takes. Grace NEVER gives a license to walk according to FEELINGS. Feelings are what will lead many into perdition................many are walking the broad path to destruction because they are led by those feelings. This is GRIEVING to the Lord.

 

Comment/question
One thing I have not seen from the MDR "camp" is that you will surely be doomed to hell because you do not agree with our understanding of the Word.
Response
I think that may be because there are no scriptures which states that. Matter of fact, I don't believe there are any scriptures which teach one's understanding/misunderstanding of scripture will "doom them to hell"...... Scripture teaches that ones PRACTICES will doom them to hell. This is what concerns the "marriage for life" camp. We truly do care that people ARE being deceived about the things Paul warned the brethren about...........

 

Comment/question
God permits marriage after divorce because it is the merciful thing to do.

Matthew 12:7

If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Response
So, you believe the "merciful" thing would not be to continue in prayer, remaining steadfast, committed and faithful for the soul of the one God has joined one to?
What type of spouse would best reflect the Love and longsuffering and faithfulness of Christ to their children----the one who waits, prays and loves even when not loved, or the one who gives up and moves on?

 

Comment/question
If you do not show mercy, you will not be shown mercy.
Response
Does God show mercy while a person remains in unrepentant sin? Yes, for the time being He does. Do we? That is the question? Seems to me that some want mercy extended to them, while they are not willing to extend it to others.

 

Comment/question
No matter what any of us does, whether we believe it is right or wrong, the only thing that matters is that God loves us no matter what! God would never turn away from his children because of divorce or remarriage
Response
God does love His children with a love we cannot comprehend. However, the NT has MUCH to say about adultery, words which we should not ignore..........Paul spoke this truth to BELIEVERS----not to be deceived: adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Wouldn't it behoove us to understand what Paul meant and who he was speaking about?

 

Comment/question
But He allowed for the hardness of the human heart, and the need for people to have a "way out" when the marriage union was so poorly treated. Once again, it is about His mercy - not the letter of the law.
Response
The above comment shocks me really. God allows for hardheartedness? Especially for one who claims to be born from above? How can this be? We are called to DIE to self, not to justify our unforgiveness towards the one God joins us to. WHILE we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. WHILE our spouses are yet sinners, we need to DIE for them. There is NO room for divorce in a Christian's life. We can have one forced upon us, but we still need to remain faithful----even in the face of unfaithfulness. That is Jesus and this aligns with His Word---taken in context. We seem to want mercy for ourselves, but will we extend it to those who sin against us? It seems not.

 

It is truly sad to me how many people justify themselves (especially husbands who say they are believers when their wives go astray). Have they not read and REALLY understood the role of a husband towards his wife as the Lord spoke in Eph. 5? We are called to live FOR CHRIST and die to self...........all of our self.........for the good of others and the kingdom of God. If a husband or wife won't stand in the gap for the other who is in sin, WHO WILL? Just chucking them aside and moving along is the world's way of doing things-----this is not the Lord's way.

 

Comment/question
It seems to me that as long as we relegate marriage to being a matter of the law and not of the Spirit, we will never get away from this madness.
Response
I agree, but from a completely different perspective than you hold. I view "concessions" as being very much Pharisee minded (they were looking for "loopholes" that would allow them "legally" to divorce their wives and marry other wives). Jesus clearly stated that divorce originated due to hardheartedness. What is at the root of hardheartedness? Unforgiveness towards the one who offended and spiritual adultery (yes, even the "innocent" one can be guilty of this). This spiritual adultery gives one the mindset that one could/should have a different one than the one GOD gave them and joined them to.

 

Comment/question
Wow, this is a rather contentious issue isn't it. It is interesting to see the differing views held to the age old argument of Grace vs. Law. I know which one I would choose to live by.
Response
This isn't an issue of law vs grace. This is an issue of obedience vs sin. Grace was never meant to be used so we can enter into sinful relationships, nor to continue in relationships deemed by the Lord Jesus as sinful. If Jesus calls a relationship adultery (a remarriage), we can no nothing in honesty, but agree with Him.

 

Comment/question
Careful, Cindy, you are presenting yourself as if you are a sinless human. Well, hmmm.... may be you are since you're casting several well aimed stones at all of us divorced (and obviously going to hell by your standards)!!
Response
I know that is your defensiveness kicking in, but I'm sure how you are judging me above is not how you judge yourself (don't address ANY sin unless you are perfect??). I don't think I have ever stated that I am sin-free, but I do understand that tactic you are using. When Jesus spoke on "judging", it was not that we are not to call sin sin, it is that we are not to call sin sin when we are walking in hypocrisy, not because we are not perfectly sinless.

Just to be clear here: I am by no means throwing stones. Is it your contention that if a Christian speaks against ANY sin, they are then "throwing stones" at those who may be guilty?

Personally, I do not believe in condemnation of the adulterer/adulteress. Jesus came so that such could have life. He did not pick up a stone to throw at the woman caught in adultery----He gave her a chance to REPENT of her adultery. He told her to "GO and sin NO MORE".........in other words, leave her life of adultery. In the OT, the penalty was DEATH---no chance to "go and sin no more"........such were forced to "sin no more" through their physical death. NOW, dying means to forsake our sin and live for Jesus. It's a very different scenario. I do believe it is the Lord's desire for all who are in adultery to repent and come to Him, so they are not those named by Him and Paul who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The church needs much cleaning up. This is only one area.......it's a BIG area of sin(as it perverts the relationship of Christ/Church), but it's only one........and as I said, I am not without sin in my own life and know the Lord is not done with me either. I dont' believe the Lord is done either with the adulterer/homosexual/murderer/thief/drunk/coveters/fornicators, etc, etc, etc........It is His desire that ALL die to self and live for Him-----so they receive eternal life. Blessings.......

 

Comment/question
People listen to yourself throwing scripture upon scripture that sounds like you have some much knowledge of such, but look at the fruit of what is this causing amongst every one, division and pride, this is the discernment I was trying to speak to you people be aware that your word and self knowledge are being use to destroy against the unity of this brethren in this site (Sermon Index). We are to edify and uplift one another ... be hold no matter where we are when you are seeking the truth of the word of God the enemy is not just gonna sit by, this spiritual realm bringing destruction, dissension, disunity and every diversion to stop any growth of truth in our life. Do not let yourself to fall on the scheme of the enemy.
Response
Any one of us could say the same thing about a vast array of biblical doctrines/teachings, etc. Take the prosperity gospel........should we "be quiet" about the false teachers who are leading many astray because it will cause them "hurt" who hold tight to this doctrine? Should we allow such false teachings continue to grow unopposed because it will bring "disunity"? How about the "homosexual Christian"? Should we not address the sin of homosexuality because it will cause division in the church?

TRUE unity means that we are walking united in the Truth. We cannot be truly united if we are walking in error and passing on that error.

Also, edification means to BUILD UP. We cannot build up and have it stand if the foundation is shaky/flawed or if the stones laid on the foundation are shaky/flawed. Many times in order to properly build up, the "shaky" needs to be exposed, then taken out and replaced with that which is solid/sure. All of us, if we have sought truth on a given area of doctrine, have found "shaky" places that needed to be replaced.......and I'm sure that process is far from over in most of us. 

 

Comment/question
So, teachers (Elders) need to be slow to speak and be very careful of their choice of words when they do speak to the people of God, when giving them counsel. Jesus wants sinners saved not condemned by man! Is LOVE the only motive one has? or is ones only motive to be well known for preaching "some" doctrine?
Response
We cannot say that because God's Written word was brought forth by a servant of God and led to conviction due to one's circumstances/lifestyle, that it is man condemning. That is not the truth. It is the Word which is doing a work.

As for people of God changing their counsel, I am sure you understand the nature of progressive revelation. Many people are shown things by the Holy Spirit which will change what they will now teach, or it will expand one's understanding in specific areas of application, where there was only a general understanding. Blessings..........

 

Comment/question
Any sinner already feels condemned and it is not for Gods people, teachers etc... to rub the sinners face into the ground over and over again with no message of hope.
Response
Jesus IS our hope. He is the hope for the homosexual who hurts at the thought of departing from his sinful long termed relationship. He is the hope for those who are caught up in extramarital adultery and are hurting knowing that the fruit of true repentance is forsaking such relationships which may in fact be "better" than their actual marriage............following Jesus HURTS sometimes, yet, He promised to never leave us or forsake us----period. Do we believe this or not?

Comment/question
In any harsh message there should also be a balance of love, grace and Salvation. Every message given to the sinners should only point the people to Jesus, but the one giving the message the (messenger) should always do it with the TRUE love of God having a great concern for Gods lost sheep that He is trying to lead into the fold. Anything less than this does NOT bare the message of the cross to a dying world.
Response
We need to be careful of accusing the brethren of not walking in Love..........they may in fact be walking with the very heart of God in an area of counsel, but the one receiving cannot recognize it because they don't want to "hear/heed" what is being said. 

 

Comment/question
My opinion is that there is a huge point being missed in the grace part of all this...
I just do not believe that a God would wire his people to have all these feelings, and then tell them them they can't remarry if they find themselves in a divorce they didn't want...but you remain single for the next 30+ years...for what??? Grace covers.
Response
I am glad you used the word opinion here. We all have opinions on what we believe life SHOULD be like. However, for a Christian, we cannot live our lives based upon "opinion" if we desire to walk in fellowship with the Lord. We must rely upon, "Thus saith the Lord"........and it is not some secret voice we hear which may be different from the voice another hears........We have His Word----given to all of mankind-----rejected by most, accepted by few.

 

Comment/question
I have not judged others. I have judged sin as sin as we are called to do in the Word of God. We are called to discern "judge" between right and wrong.

And whether you ever believe it or not, it is the MOST LOVING and Christian thing to do to warn a brother or sister in Christ against doing something that scripture says has eternal consequences and point them toward truth. I'm sorry that I cannot in good conscience tell someone what their tickling ears want to hear, when God's Word gives overwhelming evidence pointing the other way.
Response
You are quite right. We are called to judge righteous judgment. How do we do that? We can't judge hearts/motives because most of the time those things are hidden---except from the eyes of God. What then are we called to judge? Actions/lifestyles--and especially among the brethren, because if we are ONE, as the Word of God states, then every sin in the Body WILL affect all............and it will affect how the world views Jesus Christ.

Can we forced repentance? No. Can we bring conviction? No. All we can do is bring forth the Word of God in Truth, praying that those who are His (not the tares sown in amongst the wheat), will HEAR with the Holy Spirit's guidance---for truly, it is HE that will bring conviction, and the Lord who grants repentance (and the will to want to repent). Blessings.........

 

Comment/question
Where does God ask you to judge sin?
Response
I Corinthians 5:11-13, 6:1-5

 

Comment/question
You in particular have really beat the drum hard...and now to find out...you aren't divorced???

I guess that really floored me more than anything.

Have you ever wondered how truly grounded you are in your convictions??? I mean, what would happen? Have you ever tried to "think" that far out to a point where you might find your self divorced???

You can have a certain sympathy for those of us that are divorced...but you have never experienced the pain, the depression, the separation...yet you can get on here and talk of a legalistic approach that really puts a divorced christian in a box.
Response
As for me having to experience something in order to speak God's Word on it, I'm not sure what you are meaning there. Do you believe one has to go through life as a homosexual, turn their life around, THEN they are qualified to speak on the sin of homosexuality? Do we have to LIVE through all the heartbreaks in order to have a right to address it? I am not speaking from a "have gone through it experience; ie; divorce, but I am just as qualified to speak on it----as my views are not based upon what I "want", but according to what I SEE. In my opinion, what we SEE (God's Word), is a much more reliable way to ascertain truth---as a matter of fact, it is the ONLY way to be sure one is walking in the Truth and not being led astray due to personal circumstances, protective friends/family advice, etc.

I think on this issue that I can speak as one who has experience with divorce/remarriage. My parents divorced, so yes, I did experience, pain, depression, separation. The "effects" of my parents divorce are still here. We are still in a sense "separated" due to the decision BOTH of them made to not remain faithful to their vows. My Mom went through 3 more marriages. My dad also remarried. 2 sisters married divorced men, and my brother, a confessing Christian, is on his 3rd wife. I USED to hold that marriage was INTENDED to be lifelong. It was a much EASIER stance to hold, in regards to my own family situation. However, for some unknown reason to me, THIS ISSUE is one the Lord wanted me to diligently seek HIM on.......and the strange thing is that He wanted not only me to study this, but my husband ALSO got deeply urged by the Lord to study this. Both of us can clearly see that this issue has a real stronghold in the church. There are questions that can be asked that many, of not most pastors will either fluff off, or start the sentence with, "YOU mean to tell me.....................?!!!"...........and this is due to SCRIPTURE being given about the sin of adultery after a divorce.

In any case, (name deleted), I'm not telling you or anyone else to believe ME, I'm encouraging you to REALLY study God's Word with a heart to know the truth and do the truth---at any cost. Most will say they want truth, but do they really, if it will COST THEM much? Jesus says most will not desire to walk in the Truth and I believe that. Just as many turned away from Jesus in His day when it got too "hard" (John 6), it is no different today when some learn of the cost of following Him. Many today say they follow Jesus, but do they----according to how HE judges a follower? (Mt. 7:21-23)...........The truth be told, there are MANY lonely followers of Christ throughout the world(and I'm not just speaking of divorced persons), but the wonderful thing is: HE said He would never leave us or forsake us............. Blessings brother.

 

Comment/question
Do you know Gods heart for the divorced against their will?
Response
Absolutely. It is no different than for those who divorced in agreement. No longer two, means just that. So, the Lord's heart in all situations where man has separated(in a physical sense) what God has joined together, is for the ONE to again walk in unison. It is never His will/heart to bring a third party into the ONE.

 

Comment/question
I do not see any progressive revelation here at all...I see two groups of people, one group is making the statement, "I stand where I am. I will never flee" and the other stating, "Where is the mercy of God in this doctrine?"
Response
Ah, yes, I used to be of the second group----until the Lord URGED me to study this out----though I wasn't a divorced or remarried woman. My husband, also, around the same time was URGED to study this very same issue by the Lord. Why??? I have no idea, but the thing is, we both came to the same conclusion.

When I speak of "progressive revelation", I would have counseled MUCH differently THEN than I do now. When the Lord opens one's eyes to ANY doctrine/practice, one cannot go back. Many times when the Lord starts to open one's eyes they see the BIG picture, yet they don't yet understand all the "minute" features of the Big picture..........that, many times, continues unfolding as we continue seeking the Lord and as people are brought into our path who bring up issues that we do not have answers for yet.

 

Comment/question
Lastblast (Cindyw), isn't bolding, the word "adulterer" umpteen times a way of pointing the finger at, and comdemning adulterers,? This is totally unnecessary, as we can read the bible ourselves where the word adultery is not bolded. I hope we are not trying to drive our own personal point home?

The Lord Jesus never called the woman caught in adultery an adulteress, and He did not condemn her. So I disagree with you. I believe many here are pointing the fingers at adulterers and missing the point that they also are not without sin.
Response
I checked over many of my most recent posts and did not see "adulterer" bolded as to stand apart from the rest of my post, though I am sure I have done it at times to emphasize a point being made. Personally, since adultery IS the focus of much of this thread, it makes sense that in passages where many other lifestyle sins are discussed, that adultery would be highlighted among them.

As for Jesus not calling the woman caught in adultery an adulteress, this is correct, but she was in fact an adulteress. He did not condemn her as the law called for because Grace gives occasion for repentance to occur. Jesus extended Grace, telling her to stop her lifestyle of adultery(go and sin no more).

The truth is that labeling one is not unscriptural if they are continuing in their sin. Paul DOES label the woman who marries while her covenant husband is still alive: an adulteress. If she would forsake that sin, then she would no longer carry around that label.............."for such WERE some of you"..........

None of us can rightly accuse others of sins that are past, yet we can rightly say that a person IS such and such if they are PRESENTLY abiding in that sin----whether that person is saved/unsaved.

 

Comment/question
Believers will not be judged because we were already judged when Christ bore our sins on the cross.
Response
Judgment begins at the house of the Lord......

Comment/question
Would you please elaborate what you mean by posting this.
Response
Sure. I'm sorry my post wasn't more clear. You stated that believers will not be judged. We find in I Peter 4:17, "For the time has come for judgment to begin in the house of God; and if it begins with us first, , what will be the end of those who do not obey the Gospel of God?

II Thessalonians 1:7-9, "and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

Jesus tells us that MANY will come to Him in THAT DAY, saying, LORD, LORD.........yet what does He say to them? "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness"...........Calling oneself a Christian AND practicing lawlessness is a big deal to the Lord.

We see that from the OT to the NT God does not change concerning judging His people first:

Ezra 9:4-10, "The LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. "Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary." So they started with the elders who were before the temple. And He said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!" Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city. As they were striking the people and I alone was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, "Alas, Lord GOD! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?"

Then He said to me, "The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is (I)filled with blood and the city is full of perversion; for they say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!' But as for Me, My eye will have no pity nor will I spare, but I will bring their conduct upon their heads.

Comment/question
You misunderstood what I said. What I am saying is that believers will not be judged in the manner that unbelievers will be. The coming judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne of Judgment will entail the pronouncement of guilt and the receiving or sentencing of eternal punishment for their unbelief.
Response
I think the verses I posted from the OT and NT show that God's people are INDEED
judged/chastised in the here and now. For the repentant, yes, Jesus' sacrifice ensures an eternity with Him, yet as has been said here, those who REMAIN in sin cannot be viewed as "repentant", though they profess to be Christians.

Comment/question
Btw, you are taking that verse from 1st Peter 4:17 completely out of context. It's not a reference to an eternal or Heavenly judgment by God of believers. It's a reference to the coming tribulation and persecution which will be poured out on the Earth in the last days, which will fall particularly hard on the believers who will be put to death for their faith.
 Response
The scripture says, "judgment begins at the house of the Lord"...............I gave you the passage in Ezra 9 in which "judgment begins at the house of the Lord"............and it was the LORD who judged His people---in the here and now for their continued sin against God.

Comment/question
The verse you are referencing is Matthew 7:23, which again, is not referring to believers being judged. These are unbelievers, who thought they were believers due to their works of righteousness. Their devotion it would appear, is to the law and not to the LORD.
 Response
No, it does not say they were devoted to the "law".........Jesus called them workers of LAWLESSNESS. These had no regard for His laws. They did the "churchy/religious" stuff, but they were not regenerated, as evidenced by their continuation of practicing lawlessness/iniquity.

Comment/question
The key phrase that reveals that this is not being directed toward believers, is "I never knew you: depart from me". Christ will NEVER say that to a true believer. What He will say, is:

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Response
Very true. Jesus cannot say, "I never knew you", to someone who He DID know at one time and had an intimate relationship. This passage can very well be a parallel verse to Matthew 25:1-12. The foolish virgins "thought" they were ready to meet the bridegroom, yet when He came they were not ready. They were "hearers", yet not "doers"...........and when they come "in that day", Jesus says, "I know you not". Paul says for each confessed believer to TEST themselves to see if they be of God. One who is of God cannot remain in a sinful state (as defined by the Lord) and truly have confidence that they are a child of God.

Comment/question
I agree, that He often times harshly judged His own people in the OT under the covenant of Law. But, this has nothing to do with the Judgment Seat of Christ, that we believers will appear before in Heaven.
 Response
God still judges sin in His Body, through His chastening (Hebrews 12:4-11, I Corinthians 5:1-5).

 

Comment/question

I do not wish to redefine sin however, adultery is just that, a sin and all sin was dealt with at the cross. In other words, it was all PAID for so whenever a believer commits a sin, it has already been forgiven. Now as Paul said, that does not give us a license to sin but it does give us the comfort of knowing that there is not one sin we can commit which was not nailed to the cross. Based on this spiritual truth, I refuse to believe that God would rather have us breakup families to satisfy the requirements of a law, which has already been satisfied through Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Response
So then, you have in reality redefined the sin of adultery. Jesus says it is adultery to enter a relationship after a divorce. You, in earlier posts have stated that a real believer would not continue in their sin, yet for this sin, you believe it is different-----that one CAN continue in it and that person IS a genuine believer.....That Jesus' debt paid for the right of a person to continue in their sin. Do you not see that this is EXACTLY what Jesus addressed in Matthew 7:21-24? He does not know those who continue to sin..........His Grace did not "pay" for that. His Grace is extended to those who come to Him in lowliness of heart/mind, seeing their sin and desiring to FLEE their sin-----they submit to Jesus as LORD and in so doing, receive Him as their Savior. Jesus said, "why do you say, "Lord, Lord", yet do not do what I say?".............

Comment/question

If God convicts people of being guilty of adultery because of not being scripturally divorced, then that is between them and God. People like you and (name deleted) and (name deleted) have no right to pronounce judgment on others when you don't even know the circumstances of their divorces. Remarriage is allowed in certain circumstances!

Response
Oh, I don't disagree with you. I do believe remarriage is allowed in certain circumstances. I know of 2 of them-----1. If their lawful spouse has passed away. 2. If they were previously in an UNLAWFUL marriage (they married someone who was divorced----in other words, they were committing adultery with the other person, they were not joined by God to them). Beyond those two situations, I don't find remarriage to be lawful. As for those of us who address this issue publically, if remarriage is sin, then it SHOULD be publically addressed among believers. It affects the Body of Christ----and I think we are seeing just how big an impact it is having.

Families are being destroyed left and right due to the "silence" in many churches on this issue. If Jesus says it is adultery to marry after a divorce, then the church ought to teach that and the church ought to hold it's members accountable who disobey the Lord and hurt the testimony of the Body of Christ.

Comment/question

It's Christians like you and the others that I mentioned that drive people away from Christ.

Response
No, it's that some people have "counted the cost" of following Jesus and they do not think it worth it. There are always those who are disobedient to the commands of the Lord who do not want to give up their sin, but want to keep it. Name the sin.............if it is discussed, even in the nicest, most polite ways, those who love that sin will charge those discussing the sin with driving people away from Jesus. Truly though, what is really driving them away? Is it not that they do not want to "lose their life".........but that they would rather "keep their life"?

 

Comment/question
Some people are so steeped in Law that they have no room for compassion.
 Response
Do you have compassion for the forsaken ones who believe themselves to be married for life? The Lord did............and He does not look too kindly on the one(s) who forsakes the covenant (Malachi 2:10-17), nor towards those who come between what He has joined together.

Comment/question
As I stated earlier, some people are so steeped in law that they have no room for compassion.
Response
But you didn't answer my question: do you have compassion for those who have been forsaken in their first marriages........for those children whose lives have been ripped apart because they don't have their original parents together----the parents that God joined together in marriage?

See, the thing is, that the Lord has compassion on ALL.......and so should we. However, our compassion does not negate the Word/commands of our Lord and His definition of sin. If we love God, we bring our lives into alignment with His Word. His Word does not change to suit our individual life choices.

 

Comment/question
Too many Pharasees here that want to follow law and the not overall intent of God's Word. Too many would rather sit on a righteous throne and condemn instead of read beyond the words. 
Response
If you would study the attributes of the Pharisees you would see that you wrongly label those of us who believe and encourage obedience to Christ's commands. The Pharisee looked for "loopholes" to NOT do the Will/heart of God(they wanted to retain what the Lord labeled "hard-heartedness" towards the ONE God joined them to). The Pharisee walked in hypocrisy----telling others to walk Holy, yet they themselves sinned in the very same ways they condemned others. The Pharisee put MORE on God's people than God expected (added "man's" rules to God's commands).

We who share what JESUS said on re-marital adultery and what HE and Paul said on the fate of those who continue in their adulteries have not added to God's Word. If we do not speak out against the sin the Lord has shown us which is growing in the professed Body of Believers, we will be held guilty for knowing, yet remaining silent.

 

Comment/question
Liars won't inherit the Kingdom.
Swindler's won't inherit the Kingdom.
Murderer's won't inherit the Kingdom.

I believe Paul inherited the Kingdom.
I believe David did as well.
I believe that Moses did too!
I believe John Hagee will inherit the Kingdom.
Along with Joyce Myers, me, my ex wife, and my kids..

such as WERE some of you. Those who continue practicing sin will NOT inherit the kingdom of God----whether we want to say otherwise does not change what Paul said, nor what Jesus said (Rev. 21:7-8, Rev. 22:14-15.

the (marriage, divorce) message you are pushing is so negative, so legalistic, so unmerciful, so ungracious, and so unforgiving.
Response
I am far from an unforgiving person, Anchor---whether you believe it or not. I myself have been forgiven much, so I do not stand and say what I say lightly. It may be a negative message, but if I were to go back in the past and speak the same thing to people 100 years ago, would they respond the same way? All the research I have done, would say, "no". Why is that? I'll tell you. I believe it is because more and more people are divorced and remarried now. They (most, not all) do not want to hear what the Bible has to say on their situation, so they will label those of us who speak God's Word as "unloving, judgmental, legalistic, lacking Grace, etc, etc"..........

Yet years ago, the very same message of fleeing sin, abiding love, and restoration would have been received with applause. Things are quite backwards now. Today, many allow situations to dictate how they view/interpret scripture. When some come upon the passage, "whosoever divorces their spouse and marries another commits adultery, and whosoever marries a divorce person commits adultery"----they think/say, "Surely that CAN'T mean what it says!!! That would affect multitudes today!!!"

Today, we speak about LOVE, yet when one of us calls another to LOVE as Christ loves, they are railed against (I Corinthians 13). Why is that? There are so many out there trying to "protect" their sin or their desire to enter into what may be sin, that they totally discount those who ARE the legitimate spouses of the divorced---in God's eyes. Some will go on and on about the repentance issue (forsaking the illicit relationship), not giving a care about the wife/children who have been deserted by the husband who has then run off with another woman. You want grace applied to such a man and the other woman, yet will you afford the same Grace to the deserted who see themselves NOT free to remarry? This puts us in quite a quandry, doesn't it? Either one is FREE or they are NOT-----we can't tell both groups that they can just do what the Lord leads---because we may just be counseling the two women who are involved with the same man. Whose husband is she REALLY in the eyes of the Lord????

This IS a big deal, brother, whether you can see it or not. This is not an issue of "to each his own". We are either counseling in sin, or in truth.

 

Comment/question
So why do you associate with US? You cannot save us, only Jesus can; and guess what...HE ALREADY HAS!!!!! We are the truly saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Response
It is probably because we have seen fruit of speaking God's Word to those who at first appear to reject it. Unfortunately, much missionary work needs to be done IN the professing church of today, so that we can rightly go OUT and rightly teach others to obey all the Lord has commanded (Great Commission).
 Comment/question
The great commission is to preach the gospel of grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Not to persecute those who do not agree with you.
 Response
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you........"

Are you saying that "teaching them to observe all things He has commanded" is wrong (in regards to professed disciples)?

Comment/question
It is wrong when you persecute and condemn those (remarrieds) in Christ Jesus.
Response
So I am to assume that you believe part of the great commission fulfilled is in actuality persecuting/condemning? In other words, you believe sharing what the Word of God says is not a good thing? I really would like you to answer the question I asked. What do we do if there are TWO women who both claim to be joined to a man----the first wife and the one God says committed adultery when she joined herself to a divorced man. A real scenario needing real answers. It seems that many do not want/care to discuss such things because it may negatively affect those who are in the second union. Where is the care/concern to provide biblical answers to the first wife/husband who believes themselves to be joined to another for life?

 

Comment/question
hello I am (name deleted). I am divorced. This forum has a lot of judgmental people who have not walked in our shoes. I recommend this book:

Confessons of a Good Christian Girl by Tammy Maltby

Read the chapter "It should Have Been Forever". It speaks the words of grace and hope for those who have been divorced. It doesn't condone divorce and it does not condemn people who are already divorced and hurting. There is a beautiful story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. There is hope and healing and grace for those of us who walk this road. It is not about dotting every "I" and crossing every "T" in the theology of divorce in the Bible. In fact, Jesus condemned those who did this more than He did anyone else. He didn't scream Scripture at the woman at the well who had 5 husband, but spoke grace and healing. We don't have all the answers. Remarriage is a reality for many. Jesus still loves the divorced and remarried . I am not about to get into the babbling nonsense here. I post this so that anyone reading the posts like the one above, that only shout condemnation, to show them the grace and tender love of our Lord. Love, (name deleted)
Response
There IS grace for those who are hurting. However, God's Grace is NOT given so we can enter into sin and then excuse it away, saying God's Grace covers that sin. His Grace is given so that we can ESCAPE the bondage of sin----something the unsaved do not have the power to do.

God's Word clearly teaches us adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. God's Word also clearly teaches us those who divorce AND marry others are committing adultery(because in God's eyes a divorce does not sever what HE joined together). To say it is NOT sin to do so---to commit adultery by joining with someone who is not one's spouse in God's eyes---- is to reject what Jesus has spoken contrarywise.

Jesus taught us that those who truly love Him will obey Him and His commandments will not be grievous to them. He also taught us that "whosoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whosoever loses his life for my sake shall save it". When He comes (or we die), will we be found as one who has died to self so that Christ can live through us, or will we be found in appearance as living life no differently than the "lost" world?

One other thing concerning the "law"............On that day----the day of judgment, Jesus teaches us that MANY will come in His name saying, "Lord, Lord" (professors of Christ)..........yet, He says "depart from me, you worker of lawlessness". See, those who practice lawlessness (living in adultery is certainly practicing lawlessness) will be rejected by Jesus---no matter what good "works" they did upon the earth in His name. Very sobering.............

 

Comment/question
If we are guilty of breaking the smallest commandment - we are just as guilty as breaking all the commandments....

Do you still have stones to throw?
 Response
This has nothing to do with throwing stones. Jesus came to give life, ----not only for the adulterer/adulteress, but for ALL sinners who desire Him over anything else. We are calling those who are in error or are teaching error and causing people to sin, to take up their cross and FOLLOW HIM...........BE LIKE JESUS---no matter how high the cost is.

We must remember these things: Jesus would not take His neighbor's wife for Himself. Jesus would not defraud his brother. Jesus would not cause a woman to sin by giving her opportunity. Jesus would encourage LOVE, Patience, hope, longsuffering towards one's wayward spouse............Jesus would encourage one to "endure to the end". He most of all would encourage us to let HIM carry our burdens, would encourage us to ask HIM for strength to walk out His Will for our lives and He would encourage us to ask HIM to help us LOVE those who are not lovely in our lives. Without Jesus we could do none of these things.

 

Comment/question
Many I know who are divorced prayed and hung on for years. One woman I know stayed for 28 years before she could stand it no longer. Her children were horribly damaged by her husbands stupidity. You think you know other peoples hearts, that they don't care. Why would this woman have stayed so long if she hadn't cared? She'd have left the first year, when his obnoxious behavior began. Judgmental is what your attitude would be called. Remember what Jesus said about that?
 Response
FEW stay for that long, (name deleted). MOST get out of their marriages within the first 10 years.

I'm sorry that you feel my attitude is judgmental, but it is not. My judgments are based upon the Word of God, not situational reasonings. As I have stated, when one is in an abusive situation, there is remedy...............depart, but remain unmarried. See, the problem is that those who depart don't want to remain unmarried, so they label people such as me, "judgmental", when in reality they are not against what I/others say, but against what God Himself has commanded............and they don't want to hear it.

 
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