"Look at the legalized adultery we call divorce.
Men marry one wife after another and are still admitted into good
society; and women do likewise. There are thousands of supposedly
respectable men in America living with other men's wives, and thousands
of supposedly respectable women living with other women's husbands."
- R. A. Torrey From R.A. Torrey's book How to Pray, pages 94-95
R.A. Torrey (1856-1928) was a very well-known Christian writer,
evangelist, pastor, graduate of Yale University, and was also the
superintendent of Moody Bible Institute for 19 years.
TRINITY BARS THE
DIVORCED.; No Remarriage in the Church or Any of the Chapels.
The clergy of Trinity Church announced yesterday that under no
circumstances will divorced persons be married by any of the clergy of
that Episcopal parish, nor will such marriages be permitted either in
the church at Wall Street and Broadway or in any one of the parish's
eight chapels. The announcement was as follows:
View full article New York Times
December 7, 1904, Wednesday
Comment/question
I think I'm going to have to reread my bible. I don't recall remarriage
being the unforgivable sin.
Response
As to the question of remarriage as the unforgivable sin------if, in
fact, remarriage IS adultery (defined as the unlawful joining of one
person with another who is NOT their lawful spouse), then the
relationship itself is sin. If we are to say that we can remain in
sinful relationships and be AOK with the Lord, then we need to be quiet
about ALL other types of illicit relationships. We can pick one, say
it's ok---even though scripture says otherwise, and then come down hard
on another type of illicit relationship. All the world will see is
Hypocrisy and wonder how it is that one relationship God called adultery
is Ok in the church, but other types of sinful relationships are
condemned with demands of repentance (forsaking the relationships) to be
in fellowship with that Body.
Comment/question
Man, i am really confused. I'm new here and I tried to read most of your
posts. But it sounds like divorce and remarriage can never be forgiven
and i was always taught that blasphemy of the Holy Ghost was the only
sin that couldn't be forgiven. I mean, I know a lot of very good
christians who have been divorce and are remarried. You can tell by
their lives that they are good christians and live right. They are not
hypocrits. Why can't remarriage be forgiven like the rest of the sins? I
don't mean to sound dumb, because all you guys typed all those verses of
the Bible, but i still don't understand. I mean think of all those
people who have been divorced and are going to hell even though they
were saved but got married again. Makes me not to want to get married
because you never know what will happen even with 2 christians.
Response
My 12 year old son feels the same way. My job as his parent is to teach
him God's Word regarding marriage so he is well grounded and I hope you
are as well BEFORE you get married. Many are not. You know, the
disciples had the very same reaction you and my son had. What Jesus says
IS a hard thing to take---that marriage is lifelong and even if your
spouse sins against you (committing adultery or whatever), you are bound
for life.
See,
the thing that has happened is that man has said, "no, I WON'T stay
married to her/him because of ...............", then they go ahead,
divorce and remarry. In doing so Jesus has said that they are now
committing adultery. How can it be adultery? They got divorced right?
Well, the only way it could be adultery to remarry is because Jesus sees
the covenant marriage as still in tact. The second marriage is akin to
an extramarital affair---maybe it doesn't look like that to us, but it
sure does to Him. That is because we have allowed man's laws to overrule
those laid down by God. He made two into ONE. The "third" person is an
intruder into the One flesh God created.
Adultery is forgivable, this is true. Many, many saints have turned away
from their adulteries and returned to their spouses. Or, if they have
lost spouses due to their sin, have remained single, being faithful to
the Lord.
"remarriage is not the unforgivable sin".........a comment I see quite
often. This is a true statement. Remarriage (adultery) is NOT the
unforgivable sin. I know of a couple right now who are in the process of
rectifying their sinful relationship. They are separating from each
other and eventually will divorce legally. That is repentance from an
adulterous marriage.........since God does not view them as lawfully
joined in His eyes, they are doing the works of repentance. I personally
know of quite a few people who have done likewise. Some who say it's
"not forgivable" are right in that if they are unwilling to discontinue
the sin, it is not forgivable----they are unrepentant. That goes with
ANY sin, not just adultery.
It is
a real blessing to know someone who is not yet married is reading this
thread. Personally, I believe this thread is mostly for you----to
encourage you to seek the Lord extensively BEFORE you seek to be joined
as "ONE" by Him. It's a very serious decision in life to make.
Comment/question
Okay, lets go from another angle - where in the Bible does it say that
divorced and remarried people can NOT be forgiven? And where does it say
in the Bible that once God forgives a person for these sins, He keeps
bringing it back up everyday?
David
committed several horrible sins, but he certainly was forgiven and had
the favor of God.
Response
No one in this thread is saying that a divorced and remarried person
cannot be forgiven. One can ALWAYS forsake their sin and KNOW they did
right in the sight of the Lord. The issue is whether one can remain in a
relationship the Lord calls sin (adultery) and continue in that
relationship with the blessings of God upon them...........
The
issue also exists concerning salvation-----can one continue in an
adulterous relationship until their deathbed and then lose their
salvation, or on the other hand, if one does continue such a
relationship without even "twitching" after they have "seen" the Word,
were they ever really saved? Those are very valid questions since Paul
taught the brethren that adulterers cannot enter or inherit the kingdom
of heaven. By definition (God's definition), if someone is an adulterer
(extramaritally or through remarriage)----are they going to inherit the
kingdom of heaven?
Comment/question
And then there is grace. Does God allow us to continue to sin over and
over because of grace? Yes and No. We do. He hates it. He loves us
anyhow and continues to try to grow us to a point of obedience for our
own good.
Jesus
covered all our sins. There is nothing we can do that is excluded from
that. Can living in sin cause you to have a hard heart and turn away?
Yes. Your salvation at that point is an issue for another thread.
Response
Salvation is a BIG, BIG, issue. It is a point that cannot be ignored in
this topic of conversation. If Paul stated that adulterers will not
inherit/enter the
Also,
concerning unrepentant sin, do you really believe it is all about us as
to why we are not to continue in sin? Paul teaches that we are to
present ourselves as a LIVING sacrifice to the Lord.........and Jesus
taught that we are to be a "light" to the world.
I
don't see our lives as really being about "us", and the motivation for
"doing" right is to reap benefits for ourselves. I see the benefits we
gain more as a "byproduct". Sometimes there will be NO benefits seen in
the here and now. Obedience unto holiness is really all about loving and
worshipping Jesus and for the benefit of others. It all comes back to
the 2 commandments Jesus gave........
Comment/question
I do feel sad though that people limit God's
grace in their determination to prove that they are "right" Scripturally
Response
You don't know how much I would love to be wrong in this area of
doctrine, but I am fully confident that what the Lord showed me within
the last few years IS correct. That is why NO ONE can tell me WHEN a
remarriage becomes a lawfully joined union in the sight of God. NO ONE
can truthfully go to the Word of God to show how what the Lord calls
adultery (unlawful relations with someone who is NOT your spouse)
becomes a lawful relationship through confession.
No
other illicit relationship can turn into a lawful one in the sight of
God just because one confesses their guilt in being in such a
relationship (homosexuality, fornicators, incestuous, etc). Only
forsaking an illicit relationship is acceptable repentance to the Lord.
However, concerning adulterous marriages, people believe they can
confess their guilt and then STAY in the sin----that their confession
somehow changes the nature of the relationship. If one is of that
mindset, then how do you see the adulterous marriage in which there is
NO confession of guilt. Is it a lawful marriage joined by God?
Like
I said, at what point in a remarriage does it become a lawfully joined
by God union? Until you can answer that question with full confidence
with the Word of God supporting your position, I don't understand how
you can be fully "at peace" with your viewpoint.
Comment/question
(Comparing Remarriage to Murder) You cannot continue a murder. Once
committed it is done. Any additional murders are additional sins. This
is an incorrect comparison on your part and a logical fallacy. God does
not allow His followers to remain in sexual sin. And therefore once they
repent of their sexual sins, they are clean.
Response
You are right.......once you repent, any additional "doing" are
additional sins. If one is committing adultery------meaning they are
having UNLAWFUL relations with someone who is NOT their
spouse.............how do they repent? Do they stay and continue the
relationship with the person who is NOT THEIR SPOUSE? or do you believe
that confession turns the person who was not a lawful spouse into a
lawful spouse? Exactly at what point in a new marriage does it then
become lawful-------the new vow dissolves the previous? The first sexual
act after the vow? The realization that the new relationship is adultery
and confessing that knowledge? I sincerely ask this: at what point is
adultery no longer adultery?
Comment/question
No matter what any of us does, whether we believe it is right or wrong,
the only thing that matters is that God loves us no matter what! God
would never turn away from his children because of divorce or
remarriage.
Response
Yes, God does love His children with a love we cannot comprehend.
However, the NT has MUCH to say about adultery, words which we should
not ignore..........Paul spoke this truth to BELIEVERS----not to be
deceived: adulterers will not inherit the
-----------------------
Has the lord as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in
obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed than the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22
He who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and disclose Myself to him. He who does not love me does not keep My words... John 14:23-24
By
this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
The one who says: "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His
commandments, is a liar. 1 John 2:4-5.
Comment/question
Divorce is not a sin that cannot be forgiven; And one cannot compound
sin by teaching and commanding those forgiven to further commit sin by
denying the blood of Jesus is great enough to wash away this sin… clean
as new born babes, in union with Christ, this marriage recognized by
God, and command these to break the sanctify of a marriage covenant
recognized by God. This is reprehensible.
Response
I just wanted to clarify that for those of us
who believe marriage endures until death, the issue is not so much
divorce as it is the adultery one enters into when they marry again.
Jesus Himself, as well as Paul, labeled this new union
"adultery"..............it can only be adultery because the Lord views
the original marriage as intact (not dissolved). So, though we do have
an advocate in Jesus Christ, He does not advocate that we should
CONTINUE in the relationship that HE calls adultery.
You say that such relationships are recognized/honored by God. Can you
share scriptures which indicate that the relationship He has called sin
no longer is sin?
Also, in regards to length of time being in such relationships: I do not
believe that time erases the nature of a relationship. If the Lord says
a relationship is sin, it is sin----no matter how much time has passed,
how many children come from such a relationship, how many people accept
such a relationship as "ok", etc. It only matters what the Lord says
about such a relationship.
I truly wish that the ones who fight for the right to remarry would
fight as hard for original marriages and the children of those original
marriages. I find it quite ironic how many times people use the argument
against breaking up those homes the Lord says are adulterous, yet it
seems very little is spoken in regards to breaking up what God joined
together and the suffering THOSE children go
through...........Blessings.......
Comment/question
If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe
there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus
not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
Response
There is no sin that cannot be forgiven when one TRULY repents. To
repent from adultery is to forsake the adulterous relationship. To
repent does not mean to say "I'm sorry", feel bad, then go right back
into the relationship God said was sin. Does that work with
relationships God says are fornication? Does that work with
relationships God says are homosexual? Does that work with other kinds
of adultery (extramarital and just plain lusting (pornography, etc)? If
we can say, "sorry", then go right back to doing what we were doing
before that was sinful, we are not truly walking out repentance, are we?
If we could find scripturally that somehow verbal
confession/acknowledgement of sin/sorrow over sin, etc changes the very
nature of that sin, then I would agree that the repentance you speak of
was right. However, I have been unable to find ANY scripture to prove
that a relationship that GOD defined as adulterous can be remained in
while one has a living spouse........ever.
Comment/question
What are the signs that God is working in someone's life? How can you
judge what God's will is in their life? If you did not know if someone
had been divorced, could you tell by looking at their life if they are
in sin? How you explain the fact that God is working in the lives of
those that you claim to be in sin - even to the point of bringing them
together for marriage? What are your criteria for determining what is
"of God" and what is not?
How
do you determine who is saved and who is not?
God
will not orchestrate anything that is contrary to His being, so what do
you do if your understanding is incorrect? What damage is done to the
body and believers?
Response
I would never presume to say who is saved/unsaved. That is God's
determination. I believe it possible for a saved person to enter into an
adulterous marriage----either through the stubborn flesh or because they
truly don't know it's adulterous. Ford56 is such a person. I believe she
was saved BEFORE she entered into her adultery. I don't think she became
saved because she repented/forsaked that relationship.........I think
her forsaking that relationship is EVIDENCE of her salvation. Once she
KNEW she was in sin, she started dealing with it.
I do
believe the Lord is working in His children who are finding the truth in
this area...........more and more I'm finding out about women and men
who have/are forsaking adulterous remarriages. Unfortunately, the enemy
is very busy too----muddying up the waters of truth. That's why there is
so much confusion today within the confessing church. Many walk by sight
today, not by faith. That's why there are so many remarriages. People
see so many divorces all around them and subsequent remarriages, they
think "surely it must be ok with the Lord." People just do not believe
that it IS possible for a wayward spouse to turn around and for their
families to be restored. Instead, they disobey the Lord and join with
another person-----causing further confusion in one's family-----making
everyone in their own extended families to have to accept their decision
to enlarge their family by taking another person's family as their own.
Many
judge by appearance (so and so "looks" so Godly and appears so blessed
of God)---even though there is very apparent disobedience. Many have
forsaken how the Lord told us to judge----righteously. How do we judge
if one is walking by the flesh or Spirit----by the "fruit" according to
the Word of God. Is their life a reflection of obedience, even to the
forsaking of their own desires, or do they view Godliness as a way to
attain (of gain)? Whenever I hear "surely God wouldn't..........it's not
fair to expect......the Lord wouldn't want me
to............."............I know it's FLESH, not Spirit. Many turned
away from Jesus when they could not stomach His "hard" words. They
followed Him no more. So it is in this day. Many have a "form" of
godliness, but deny the power thereof. The flesh is ruling. "I can't"
when it relates to giving up something the Lord directs us to----or a
prohibition He places before us............should never be part of a
Christian's vocabulary except in saying "I can't disappoint my Lord and
go away from His Commands.........I Love Him too much!" I WANT His hand
on me and my family!! Just my two.
Comment/question
Now let me ask you this. Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness,
self-control, etc... Those are fruits of the Spirit. Do you believe that
folks who are remarried, no matter the reason for divorce, are in sin
and therefore how do you explain the remarried couples whose marriages
reflect these traits? Since it is by the Spirit, these are not character
traits that we can display consistently in our own strength.
Response
I knew someone who exhibited all these traits and
more------consistently..........and he was NOT saved until the very end
of his life!!! Hard to explain, isn't it? The fact is that there are
many who can consistently walk in these traits........many Buddhists,
Hindus, etc., yet I know from their profession that they do not REALLY
walk according to the Spirit.
Now
if you're asking if I believe remarried people can walk by the fruit of
the spirit.......I personally do believe so. I believe remarried people
can love God in part of their lives, but be as deceived in their sin as
any one of us can be deceived.
The
fact is that we have been desensitized to sin. We are no longer appalled
by it........in ourselves as well as in others. We live in a society now
that believes that "I" and "my needs" are tantamount. It did not used to
be this way in the
Let
me give an example of how I think someone can be walking by the
Spirit(at least appearing such outwardly), but be SO wrong in some moral
area of life. I personally know of a Pentecostal pastor and his 2nd
wife. They were in a wonderfully happy marriage---10 years. Then one day
while out on a walk, they just started talking about Jesus' sayings on
divorce/remarriage. BOTH of them suddenly were convicted that they were
in an adulterous relationship----both of them. Just seconds earlier they
were as happy as can be together with no care in the world. They were
loving God and serving Him together..........
See,
I believe conviction can come upon someone in an instant, then a whole
life of deception can be torn away and the person have EYES to see
truth. Yet, that person is really no different than they were towards
the Lord right before the Lord opened their eyes. They still loved the
Lord, but didn't SEE yet. That is how I view those who are remarried in
opposition to the Lord's Will---those who truly DO love the
Lord...........they just don't SEE yet..........but I believe they will
someday.
Comment/question
Also, the beliefs of you and other people who think that God winks the
eye at repeated sexual promiscuity prior to coming to Christ if the
person wasn't married, and therefore lets them marry someone new (like
Nicky Cruz), but does NOT wink the eye at people who maybe only had one
sexual partner but had been married and divorced, repented of whatever
issues they had and remarry in Christ, is contrary to the nature of
God's character, which is just. One who truly loves and is truly just
does not say "oh well I know you slept with 30 people, but since you are
now in Christ I will let you marry someone else, but that person over
there who only slept with their first spouse and then got divorced and
remarried must be condemned to hell if they keep living with their new
spouse." - sorry, this is contrary to the character of God, as it is not
just, and God is just. But it is what you people are advocating. I think
you all need to get back to studying the very character of God, His
love, His mercy, His justice and the fact that we are ALL sinners
deserving of death - including those who have only been married once.
Response
I don't think I nor anyone else takes lightly fornication prior to
marriage. It is sexual sin. The thing is, with that sin you are not
taking another's wife or husband. You are having unlawful relations with
another single person who has not yet vowed themselves in marriage to
another. God takes marriage vows very seriously as He is the one who
joins two in marriage as one-----and He is the one in the Word of God
who states the guidelines of marriage. We do not have that power, (name
deleted). If God says that a woman is bound to her husband until his
death, we don't get to redefine the terms of marriage. God is the
originator of marriage and He is the ratifier of the marriage covenant.
I
know it doesn't seem fair that a promiscuous person before marriage (gay
or straight) is ok once they are born again and in a first marriage (Rahab,
for example), but a person who has only had 2 partners, one their
covenant spouse and the other the 2nd spouse, is not ok with the Lord,
but in adultery. But, the Lord is the one who defines how marriage is to
be used/not used. You speak much about the justice of God and His
nature, (name deleted) but the truth is that He has spoken on this
issue. It is just too hard for many to bear----and so they go their own
way making God into an image that is more palatable to them. We need to
be very careful in doing this. God is a Holy God ----and it is because
of sin that His wrath will fall upon the many on that day of judgment.
Comment/question
Question: Do you believe that a person who is
divorced and marries another person is doomed to HELL?
Short answer is all required!
Response
Scripture clearly teaches that
adulterers/adulteresses(among many other types of lifestyle sinners)
will not inherit the
Paul said to check yourself to see if you are in the faith. If one IS in
a "lifestyle" sin, either they need to come to a place of
repentance/forsaking in those areas of sin, or they will have serious
issue with their conscience and walking in the "peace that surpasses all
understanding"
Comment/question
Do you people REALLY have the audacity to
suppose that only you very few who have this view will inherit the
Kingdom of heaven but all the other born-again Christians who disagree
with you will go to hell? Or do you think that the born-again Christians
who BELIEVE that remarriage is okay but who aren't necessarily remarried
themselves will go to heaven, whilst those born-again Christians who
have acted on their beliefs and have GOT remarried will NOT go to
heaven? I would hope you wouldn't be that discriminatory - or arrogant.
Response
What do YOU think Paul meant when speaking to
the Galatian church about those who would not inherit the
Comment/question
Because I do believe, as the scripture teaches, that our salvation
results from the gift of God, and not by our works, I don't believe
someone who makes the mistake of divorcing will forfeit their
relationship with God, but I do believe they will reap the consequences
regardless of their reason for choosing to divorce.
Response
Divorce is NOT the big issue. I see no scriptures which state that the
divorced will not inherit the
Comment/question
I don't believe someone who makes the mistake of divorcing will forfeit
their relationship with God, but I do believe they will reap the
consequences regardless of their reason for choosing to divorce.
Unfortunately, so will spouses, children, extended family, and friends
who end up being the victims of such a poor choice.
Response
Yes, others do reap the sorrows put on them by people who wrongly
divorce and remarry in the first place........the family left
behind..........the new family which is struggling with accepting each
other/dealing with rebellion of children who don't really want another
mommy or daddy, in-laws that do not like the new "member/s" of the
family, etc.....etc. Then we come to those situations in which a person
comes to the Truth on marriage----that their first marriage is still in
force in the eyes of God. If they have children together with the
2nd/3rd spouse, the children suffer because of past/ongoing sin that
need to be repented of and forsaken.
Comment/question
Let me get this straight, you believe that anyone who has remarried for
any reason will go eternally to HELL if there original spouse is still
living when they die?
If they remarry, and there original spouse dies sometime later, they
would then be able to go to Heaven?
Response
Do you feel quite confident to tell those who "may" be in adultery, that
despite what Paul and Jesus both taught about eternal judgment and
practicing adulterers, that they WILL go to heaven? I'm not. I can only
believe what the Word of God states on that matter and to me, it is of
grave concern to those involved...........
If you are wrong, and remarriage is a STATE of adultery(because one or
both belong to others), what do you do with: I Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians
5:19-21, Revelation 21:7:8, Revelation 22:14-15?
Comment/question
I think what was most startling to me was to realize that you advocate
divorce in the case of remarriages because you believe those who have
remarried are going to spend eternity in HELL! I believe that this
is a very dangerous position, and one I must absolutely reject.
Response
I understand that many will reject the position that adulterers will not
inherit the
Jesus says, "If you love me, obey me"...........If we love Him, we will
not desire to commit adultery, and if we do stumble, we will not desire
to STAY in adultery, because we instead, desire to abide in Him. It is
only those who "abide in Him" that will spend eternity with Him. One
cannot continue a lifestyle of sin and rebellion and claim to be
"abiding in Him".........
Comment/question
I've already said, no one here is saying that.
SCRIPTURE says unrepentant adulterers (those practicing
immorality) will not inherit the Kingdom. And Scripture says that those
marriages are adultery. One can do the math and come to their own
conclusion.
Response
Thank you for clearly stating that, (name deleted) I believe many people
who entered into remarriages will spend eternity with Jesus---because
they aren't UNREPENTANT adulterers. Just as Paul spoke to the
followers of Jesus concerning their PREVIOUS sinful lifestyles, "as some
of you WERE"............
Edited to add: Lest I be misunderstood, when I said such
are not unrepentant adulterers, it is because they were willing to
forsake all (including their sin of adultery) and follow Jesus. In other
words, they give up those relationships and that is what makes them no
longer "unrepentant adulterers"...........
Comment/question
A man committed to is faith in Jesus Christ, marries (his first
marriage),a woman also committed to faith in Christ who was divorced
because of what the both believed from scripture to be biblical grounds
i.e. adultery and abuse by her former spouse. Both continue after the
marriage to be devoted to their relationship with Christ, begin raising
a family together, are very involved in the life of their church, and
are witnessing to those around them and others are coming to Christ
because of their testimony.
Response
First of all, the man who married such a woman sinned because Jesus
taught: whosoever marries her who is put away (the innocent wife whose
husband is now in adultery)commits adultery (Mathew 19:9, Luke 16:18).
He took a woman who still belonged to the 1st husband. His sin (the
first husband's) did not dissolve his union with his wife.
Comment/question
It is my understanding that during this marriage you believe both the
husband and wife risk spending eternity in Hell if one of them should
die; however, the remaining spouse would be able to spend eternity in
heaven if they did not remarry after the death of their spouse, correct?
The wife could also remarry her former spouse (the adulterous abusive
one) either because she chose to divorce her second husband, or because
he died and then spend eternity in heaven, correct?
Response
Scripture, not man, teaches that practicing adulterers will not inherit
the
Comment/question
What if 10 years after this marriage began, the wife abandoned her faith
in Christ, became involved in numerous adulterous affairs, initiated a
divorce to pursue a relationship and eventually marry one of the men she
was having an affair with, and in that pursuit abandoned the husband and
children.
Response
I would have to question whether such a one was really born again to
begin with. Sounds like first thing she needs to do is get right with
God. Concerning her marital situation, she is still bound to her 1st
husband---until he dies. Her second and third marriages were/are
adulterous unions.
Comment/question
His first marriage was to this woman, so he is required to restore his
relationship only to her, correct? What if he believes strongly that he
is not permitted to remarry a spouse that was divorced because of his
understanding of Duet. 24:1?
Response
If the man was never married before his marriage to her, he was
committing adultery. He is now free to marry another should he choose,
but only a woman who is FREE to marry, otherwise he will enter into
adultery again.
Comment/question
Her first marriage was to someone else, so she is required to divorce
her third husband and remarry her first, correct? Even though all of her
children resulted from her second marriage?
Response
Children do not make a relationship lawful. God determines which
relationships are lawful and in His Word we find that 1st marriages (for
both parties, unless one has a deceased spouse) are the covenant
marriages that He joins together----for life.
Comment/question
This is no excuse to take divorce lightly anymore than taking marriage
lightly. But to see the scriptures in a way that makes God condemn these
people to hell unless they repent by re-divorcing makes for a one sided
flat god. It seems inconsistent when He so very often refuses to be put
into a box.
Response
Then that same reasoning should fit with all relationships the Lord
Himself views as immoral.........Is that what you're saying or does that
reasoning ONLY fit with one particular KIND of adultery?
There is no verse that says those in second marriages
will go to Hell, but you still advocate that position.
Response
Jesus and Paul both taught that to enter into a marriage
while one's covenant spouse was still alive was to enter into adultery.
The Word of God teaches that adulterers (and other lifestyle sinners)
will not inherit the kingdom of God. I take no joy in speaking this
truth, but it is in God's Word and should be heeded by those who profess
to know Him.
Comment/question
I believe that your interpretation stands in contradiction
to the word of God, and therefore I cannot accept it. You may choose to
accept this interpretation; however, I cannot, and just because you tell
me that this belief is taught in scripture doesn't make it so.
Response
It is everyone's God-given right to receive or reject a
word---whether it be from man or from God Himself.
I think those here who espouse the permanency of covenant marriage (til
death) have said it is not for us to "interpret" in our minds what God
has stated in regards to those who shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
What some of us have said is that what GOD'S WORD says should be taken
with all seriousness, in view of eternal reward/punishment. We do have
the scriptures as spoken by Jesus saying that to marry after a divorce
is adultery----to God. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said that the
unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (of which he included
adulterers). This is not a game, nor is it something any of us seek to
wrongly interpret to offend those who are in that situation. If we are
truly walking in love, we present the Word of God, seeking to save some
who have wandered off the path----unknowingly OR knowingly (James
5:19-20). Blessings.........
Comment/question
Yes. will the original poster please address this question
directly and not beat around the bush. are you saying if their is
divorce then remarriage, even in the case of an adulterous spouse, the
second marriage will be adulterous and the wife and husband will go to
hell if they don't divorce?
Response
Jesus, in Mt. 19:9, says that whosoever marries the "put
away woman", commits adultery(because she is not free to marry another).
This is after He speaks of her adulterous husband. It appears that Jesus
does not honor/join ANY divorced person (from a marriage He joined
together) to another prior to the death of their original spouse
(Romans 7:2-3, I Corinthians 7:39, I Corinthians 7:10-11).
As to those who are in adulterous unions going to hell if they don't
repent, I think the VERY real concern of many is what Paul taught about
those who continue in sin, not inheriting the kingdom of God. Jesus says
in Revelation 21 and 22 that the immoral will be shut out of the kingdom and
will have their place in the lake of fire. That worries many of us who
clearly see the rampant immorality in the confessing church. It is not
any of our desire to see men/women perish in their sins (James 5:19-20).
I personally do not believe a REPENTANT person will end up in hell. I do
believe, however, scripture teaches that the unrepentant (those who
refuse to forsake a life of sin) will not be with Jesus in eternity (Matthew
7:21-24), though they profess to know Him. I hope this was helpful in
regards to your question.
Comment/question
Any sinner already feels condemned and it is not for Gods
people, teachers etc... to rub the sinners face into the ground over and
over again with no message of hope.
Response
Jesus IS our hope. He is the hope for the homosexual who
hurts at the thought of departing from his sinful long termed
relationship. He is the hope for those who are caught up in extramarital
adultery and are hurting knowing that the fruit of true repentance is
forsaking such relationships which may in fact be "better" than their
actual marriage............following Jesus HURTS sometimes, yet, He
promised to never leave us or forsake us----period. Do we believe this
or not?
Comment/question
I
agree with what the last poster stated...it is more about knowing the
Lord and following his spirit.
Response
We
know the Lord through His Word being sown in our hearts. If we believe
"knowing" the Lord in a different way is good, if it contradicts His
REVEALED Will, then we need to question if we truly do know His
"spirit". His Spirit will NEVER contradict His revealed Word to mankind.
Comment/question
If the
one and only Holy God with the greatest mind of all chooses to forgive
and forget, removing all sin as far as the east is from the west, then
why do the anti-remarriage debaters here think they have a right to call
up the past and make us relive it every day of our lives from now on??
Response
Did
God say in His Word that He forgives ongoing adulterous
relationships? If I or any of us applies that thinking to ONE kind of
illicit relationship (as defined by God Himself), then we have to apply
it to ALL illicit relationships, else we be guilty of unequal weights
and measures---a practice which God hates (and Jesus did speak quite a
lot of hypocrisy, which is what unequal weights and measures is).
Comment/question
Well, my question then would be this.
Is my salvation and going to heaven conditional on whether I remain
single??? Or if I marry do I automatically forfeit my salvation???
If salvation is not "conditional" as you state, then why the discussion
about whether someone is going to enter the Kingdom if "remarried"???
All I have seen printed here is how those in "continuous adulterous"
"remarriages" will not enter the Kingdom.
Is their salvation in vain?
Or is Lucado right? Will it be pardoned at the judgment seat as covered
by his blood?
Response
One
thing that hit me while reading this post and another in which you say
the same thing regarding staying in relationships the Lord has called
adultery----you say it doesn't matter anyways for the "saved" person.
How would you address a person who says they're saved and they are
having an extra-marital relationship (adultery)? Would you tell them
that it doesn't matter to God because they're saved anyways---he can go
ahead and keep the other woman in his life? Would you tell that to the
wife who is praying that her husband would give up the other
woman----the wife who cares about preserving her marriage----the wife
who is concerned about Paul's admonishments to the brethren not to be
deceived, that the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God?
Comment/question
Also I don't believe we are at risk to lose our salvation (which I know is another thread) but according to some of your interpretation of the Word, someone who marries will lose their salvation? God searches the hearts of men, but you believe a person who is walking in the spirit in all other ways would be dammed for being remarried?
Response
Jesus says that those who marry others after a divorce are
committing adultery. Paul taught that adulterers will not inherit the
kingdom of God (I Corinthians 6, Galatians 5)..........Jesus taught that
the immoral will have a place in the lake of fire (Revelation 21) and be
shut out of the kingdom (Revelation 22). Are those not serious things to
consider when one is pondering even entering into such a relationship,
not to mention staying in relationships the Lord has called sinful? Paul
tells each professed believer to check themselves to see if they are
really in the faith. Can one who is truly in the faith continue in sin?
Many of the teachers of easy believism teach one can continue in sin and
that it is quite ok with the Lord. I do not see any of the apostles, nor
Jesus teach such a doctrine.
Comment/question
If a man who marries a woman who has been divorced, is he also considered adulterous?
Response
Jesus says, "whosoever marries one who is put away commits
adultery".........so the answer is "yes", he is considered an adulterer
because he has taken a woman who does not belong to him in the eyes of
God.
Comment/question
Second question - If a person believes in eternal salvation, ie, once-saved-always-saved, then what difference would it make if they remarried after being divorced? They believe that Jesus has forgiven ALL their sins - even the ones that they haven't committed. So everything is covered by the blood of Jesus - all sins regardless of what they are except the one unforgiveable sin, which ISN'T divorce and remarriage.
Response
The more important question would be this: How would one
truly KNOW they are saved/abiding in Jesus when they are abiding in what
He calls adultery. Jesus and Paul both taught that the immoral would not
inherit the kingdom of God. If one is immoral in their lifestyle (and
remaining in a relationship the Lord labeled as adultery would be to
remain in an immoral lifestyle), can they truly say they are saved? I
John would seem to contradict the notion that one can continue in sin
and also claim salvation.
Comment/question
Third question - The way I read the Bible, when God forgives our sins, He forgets them. So they don't exist anymore. They are as far from God's memories as the east is from the west. That covers ALL sin, even what you all say is adultery (remarriage). IF remarriage is a sin, don't you think that God can forgive AND forget it - and therefore it no longer exists?
Response
Do you believe the same thing about all other illicit
lifestyles: fornicators, homosexuals, extramarital adultery, incestual
relationships? Can they continue in their sins and truly be saved? Paul
was very clear that each of us is to "test ourselves" to see if we are
in the faith. Can one be in the faith and continue in sin?
Blessings...........
Comment/question
A person who is TRULY saved wouldn't continually live in sin. And this is most always said on the subject of divorce/remarriage. However, I personally know many people who believe this doctrine and continually, on a daily basis, commit other sins that don't seem "so big" in their or others eyes.
Response
This isn't just about living in adulterous situations
alone, this is about MANY differing sinful lifestyles. One
can be an adulterer and still be married to the same woman their whole
life---never PHYSICALLY committing adultery. One can be a lifestyle
sinner in their heart/mind. Most of the time, this manifests in the
seen, but sometimes it may not be seen by others, but God sees the
heart----even when actions are not outward. You're right, adultery is
not the only lifestyle sin listed there..............however, this
thread is about that particular issue (adultery), so that is why that
one sin is focused on in regards to those who will/will not inherit the
kingdom of God.
We must not forget that Paul tells the BRETHREN not to be deceived, that
such who DO (live a lifestyle of sin) such and such will not inherit the
kingdom of God. Why did he tell the brethren this? Was it because
possibly the teaching was around that one CAN live unrighteously and
STILL inherit the kingdom of God? Seems Paul was trying to right wrong
thinking----within the Christian community.
Comment/question
ALL Christians sin. Does that mean that they aren't really saved? Sure they are. We are just human. And I won't bow down and call their sins "mistakes". Most sins are committed on purpose with forethought. For instance, I used to work with a group of people who believed OSAS doctrine, yet it didn't bother them to abuse the time-clock rules, use company postage for personal mail, dress immodestly, or even steal from petty cash. Yet they all claimed to be saved - eternally saved.
Response
You know what? The Word of God says that those who belong
to God are DOERS of the WORD, not just hearers. Where each of the
persons are in their growth----if they are even saved to begin with---no
one knows. What I did early in my walk is not what I will do
now----because God's Word and Spirit have done a work in me to change me
more into His image. As I grow in Him, more and more things will be
purged out of my life. The thing is, when someone is TRULY born again,
when confronted with their sin and what the Word says, they will feel
conviction............they will come to repentance. If they don't, are
they saved? Such a person would really have to look hard at themselves
and wonder if they truly are in the faith. Truly, if one is saved and
the Holy Spirit is working in them, it will happen (repentance) in God's
timing as the person is given eyes to see their transgressions and the
heart desiring to forsake those transgressions.
Comment/question
A sin is a sin. If all the Christians who committed sins were then declared to never have been saved, Heaven will be empty.
Response
That's not true. There are lifestyle sins and there are
occasional sins. Since we are in the flesh, we do not always walk
perfectly. However, when someone belongs to the Lord, they do not
CONTINUE in sin once it is made KNOWN to them. Some are quicker to
repent than others, that is true, but if one has God living in them,
they will not be comfortable. No born again believer should be known as
a "liar, thief, adulterer, fornicator, covetous, drunkard, etc".
Comment/question
So to get back on this subject, I believe that when God forgives the sin of divorce and remarriage, it means that the first marriage no longer exists because God has forgotten it. The person who truly repents then start anew from that moment on. If they are presently in a marriage that wasn't their first, they have been forgiven and are in right standing with God.
Response
But where do you get that from God's Word? If Jesus said to
marry a divorced person is to commit adultery-----that means He sees the
original marriage as still intact. With that said, those who marry a
divorced person are joining themselves to another person's spouse. How
does one repent when they take someone else's spouse in adultery? They
confess and forsake the relationship God calls adultery. There is
absolutely no biblical evidence that confession changes an illicit
relationship into a lawful marriage joined by God. If a person remains
in relationship with another person's spouse, they CANNOT be in right
relationship with God.
Comment/question
I still don't understand why God, in all His love and mercy, would require that the innocent person suffer the rest of their life by being alone, unloved, without companionship, etc. My God is just and He doesn't punish one person for another person's sin.
Response
"innocent" people suffer all the time due to other's sins.
It is not God's punishment. It is a repercussion of sin. If someone
takes the life of one's children, it is not God's punishment against the
parents. They will suffer however, not due to punishment, but due to sin
on the part of the murderer. So it is with God's commands for a wife if
she departs from her husband. The husband may have made it unbearable
for her to stay in the home, or maybe the husband threw her out, etc.
However, God does not allow such a wife to remarry. He commands such a
one to "remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband".
Unfortunately, possibly due to her husband's behavior, she is
suffering...........and will suffer due to living in a Godly, obedient
manner----yet, she will walk in the peace of our Lord, and she will have
a great testimony to those who are watching her faith walk.
Comment/question
I agree that reconciliation is the thing to pray and seek God for. But if the one who left and is living in sin won't even consider reconciliation, the innocent one can't do anything about it.
Response
How can one KNOW what is or is not possible with God and
strong faith? We must always remember that God's timing and ours are
very different. If we follow Him, we must allow Him to work things out
in the manner/time that He knows is best. Many times, it takes much to
turn a wayward spouse around. You are right that in the "natural" most
of the 'innocent' ones can't do anything (unless the Lord leads them to
say/do certain things to touch the wayward). They can walk obediently
and they can PRAY. Those are BIG things, actually. Blessings,
Comment/question
What
if I entered a rich man Christian Forum; with love and good
intentions...and told them that it would be easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, then for those on this forum to enter the
kingdom of heaven.
Do you think they would all give what they have to the poor? Do you
think they would OBEY what Jesus clearly said?
Response
They
would if they love Jesus. Us coming here and speaking forth the Word of
God is for those who LOVE Jesus---for those whom the Father gave Him
from the foundations of the world. I think all of us understand that
many will not accept God's Word, nor the people through whom it comes.
For me, and many who believe in the permanency of marriage, it is NOT a
comfortable thing to speak the Truth-----but, it MUST be done. Many of
us feel COMPELLED to share the truth. I'm sorry that you are so offended
by what we speak, but truly, it is within each of us to either reject,
ponder, or accept the words that are brought forth from the brethren.
Comment/question
Life
brought them to where they are...just as life brought those who are
divorced and remarried to where they are.
Response
Yes,
"life" has brought all of us to where we are........many of us have had
MUCH sin in our past lives, yet, we know as believers, that we are
called to throw off the bonds of sin. Jesus bought us that freedom and
we are not to use our freedom to become bound to sin once again. We
speak forth to remind those who are are brothers/sisters that we, as
believers, are to FLEE immorality, not embrace it, excuse it, etc. To do
so is a dangerous thing.
Comment/question
So you
and others come in here (with love and good intentions); to a
divorce/re-marraige forum and tell the re-married they are committing
adultery, and the divorced that if they remarry...they are committing
adultry. And then point to scripture, condemn them and tell them they
will not enter the kingdom of heaven..
Response
No, we
do not say...........God said the sexually immoral will not inherit the
kingdom of God. GOD said that EVERYONE who divorces and remarries or
marries a divorced person commits adultery (having unlawful relations
with someone who is not one's spouse). You can reject the messenger, but
one day we will each stand before Him and acknowledge that His Word is
true.
Also to note, not all who post here are remarried. The title of this
includes the separated and divorced. For me, I would rather see those in
that situation REALLY get into God's Word and be solidified (no problems
answering scenarios thrown their way because they are grounded in what
the Word say in regards to allowances and prohibitions) BEFORE they
enter into another marriage which may be adulterous. Prevention is a
much better thing than trying to remedy the messes one makes when they
go their own way in disobedience to the Lord.
In regards to the remarried, all need to ponder whether they in fact
HAVE joined with someone who belongs to another in the sight of God. If
they have, does confession make that person now belong to
them.............and the Lord say to the other spouse, "sorry, too bad,
the second wife/husband now is joined to your husband since they said,
"sorry" to me for committing adultery"..........
Another consideration is this: does what we want/do not want (for those
who believe we have a "choice" to accept/reject a sinning spouse)
dictate what marriages are dissolved and what marriages are bound? If
that is so, it leaves many who believe remarriage adultery is not a
sinful lifestyle in a quandary. See, if the INNOCENT one is standing for
their marriage to be restored, then the sinning one is still BOUND to
the first covenant. For those who say, speaking a new set of vows
nullify the previous set of vows, I have yet to see ANY scriptural
evidence of this presented. To the contrary, David took back his wife
Michal AFTER she entered marriage with her second husband-----so
whatever vows she took to be his wife did not supersede her vows of
marriage to David. She STILL belonged to David.
The message "Grace covers all" is just not biblical for the followers of
Jesus in regards to continuing in any sin after confession---whether it
be immorality, lying, stealing, coveting, etc. If one continues in what
they confessed is sin, they are not truly repentant........and does
God's Word teach that there is forgiveness of sin when there is not
repentance?
Comment/question
However, all these things aside. I think the far bigger
issue is that those holding to the theology of divorce and remarriage
that you have advocated reject the validity of the faith in Christ of
all those who disagree. When a person's theology requires one to reject
the validity of the faith of Godly men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, as
well as almost every modern pastor, a lot of WARNING flags should
be raised telling us that something is very wrong.
Response
I don't reject anyone's faith in Christ based upon their
understanding of MDR as you suppose, (name deleted). I think many of the
reformers who changed the churches teachings on MDR were wrong, very
wrong, but I will not say they were/were not True Christians. Only the
Lord knows that.
Comment/question
And yet you STILL imply (or outright state) that they won't
trust Christ, won't walk out I Cor. (in spite of not knowing anything
about them or how they walk out ALL of their faith IN REALITY), are
faithless, are unforgiving, are trying to justify something, are
unsaved, are going to hell.
Response
I have never stated that people will go to hell for
believing a person has a right to remarry while they have a living
spouse. The Word of God doesn't say such persons will not inherit
eternal life. However, the Word of God does state that adulterers will
not inherit the kingdom of God. The truth of the matter, Coeur, is that
what we believe determines how we walk. If I believe I am to love my
spouse for as long as I live, irregardless of his actions, he is MINE,
that will determine whether I endure, love, am patient, long suffering,
etc, etc. If I do not believe I am called to walk in I Corinthians 13
towards my spouse, then that too will affect my choices in life----some
to my detriment, some to my children's detriment, because I am
misrepresenting Jesus Christ and His attributes to them and many very
well cause them to distance themselves from Jesus or fall into sin in
their own marriages. That is very serious.
Comment/question
and that the only people who disagree with you are those
who are trying to justify their remarriages.
Response
No, I never said that. I know many in first marriages who
disagree with me. The thing is that those "many" are not able to answer
"hard" questions nor provide ANY scripture to verify that the
relationships Jesus calls adultery are no longer adultery while one
remains in it. That truth is very evident in this thread. People say
it's not adultery because they say it's not............they cannot prove
otherwise with scripture.
Comment/question
Implication: That those who do not see as you see are
blind, have not had their eyes opened and do not know how to walk out
their faith in accordance with God's Word and heart.
Response
Either we have "light" on a topic because the Holy Spirit
has revealed truth or we do not. I did not used to have "light" on the
MDR issue until I studied IN DEPTH and the Holy Spirit showed me the
error being practiced within the confessing Body of Christ. It was a
sick, sick feeling to be shown this, (name deleted, not easy at all.
I hope that you don't think I feel "better" than anyone else, because I
surely don't see myself in that light. Even so, the truth is concerning
ANY doctrine/practice, once the Lord shows a person something, they
can't ignore the truth shown them. Scripture clearly states that we are
to CARE about the condition of His Body and our brethren/sisters. James
5:19-20 speaks about how we SHOULD care for each other----if we see one
stray from the truth, we should desire to see them turn around/away from
error, so that they will be saved from death and hide a multitude of
sins. With that said, if I SEE my brethren following the ways of the
world in regards to adultery, yet say NOTHING and the Lord Himself has
shown me that sin, will I not be held responsible for my silence? I CARE
and I can't say anything more than that to you at this point.
Comment/question
You are confusing blatant in your face unrepentant sin with people who KNOW they are flawed sinners saved by grace. The entire church is made up of sinners you know. Including you. and me. Its one thing to say "i'm sinning and I aint sorry and I aint gonna change...quite another to say "i sit here a redeemed child of the Most High God...FLAWED DEEPLY BUT WELCOMED TO THE TABLE....can you not see the difference?
Response
Who says it is "blatant" to them? Do you know that there is
a HUGE church (thousands of members) in Texas that teaches homosexuality
is AOK with God----and they BELIEVE it, so fornication is NOT a blatant
sin to them. They say they aren't gonna change. So do many people who
are in biblically defined adultery. They say, in spite of what the Word
of God says, that they are AOK with God..........and so does their
pastor. If a woman or man comes to that pastor and says, so and so has
MY husband/wife, the pastor will say, "no, the laws of the land say so
and so are lawful man and wife", yet such a pastor cannot show even 1
scripture where God joined that union as ONE FLESH as He does with those
in first marriages.
So you see, to some of us, many in the church ARE in blatant sin----they
may be deceived, uninformed as to what God's Word says, etc, but they
are still in sin, nonetheless---just like the practicing homosexual or
single person who believes God is in and approves of ALL "love"
relationships, no matter the kind.
Comment/question
We will never become perfect. and that is what you are saying...."get saved and you will be perfect"...what a distortion of the gospel of grace.
Response
No, I did not say we, in our flesh, will become perfect. We
who belong to Jesus are in the process of being perfected. Total
perfection will not come until we are resurrected.
What I did say was that when sin becomes known to us, we then hate that
sin because giving in to that sin causes us to NOT be like Jesus.
Because true believers are of the same Body, sin in the Body causes
injury and we all should care about that, not ignore it because "we are
all sinners" (I Corinthians 5:9-13). The problem is that we pick and
choose sins we will focus on. The remarriage=adultery per Jesus' own
words are being IGNORED in most churches today. Why? Because of the
number of people who are committing this sin. The Lord wants us to judge
righteous judgment..........and His way of identifying sin does not
always coincide with how the "world" identifies sin. Because we are not
"judging righteous judgment", the Western Christianity (churchianity)
looks just like the world, and it's sad because the "world" REALLY needs
to see the REAL JESUS.
Comment/question
No divorced Christian I know excuses or justifies it. We know, better than anyone, why God hates divorce. We also know grace. Do you?
Response
Some do not justify it, you are right, but many do and will
outright, even in the cases that don't fall under the so called
"permission" verse, say they did not commit adultery (join with a person
who is NOT their spouse), even though the Word of God CLEARLY in such
cases says they did.
Comment/question
Now why do you dump divorced people into the same boat? Divorced Christians know why God hates divorce. To compare them to the above is spiteful, cruel and wrong.
Response
Why do you dump divorced and remarried people all in the
same boat? I happen to know many divorced people who are remaining
faithful to the Lord and the spouse they entered into covenant with.
When I speak of adultery it is in regards to those who have disobeyed
God and entered into relationships the Lord has said are adulterous.
A Preacher's Repentance From Adulterous Remarriage.
The Testimony of J.M Humphrey
Tony Sexton's Repentance From Remarriage Adultery
More Testimonies of Repentance From Adulterous Remarriage & Messages of Encouragement
Frequently Asked Questions, Comment, Arguments About Marriage Divorce & Remarriage
Sermons & Radio Broadcasts on marriage, divorce, remarriage & more.
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Orville Swindoll
A